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Old Mon, Feb-12-2018, 07:23:45 PM   #1
nextelbuddy1
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Default Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

I decided to dyno my car Saturday just to get a feel for where its at.

Stock 2002 136k mile S54 with Geoff Steel airbox and GM 1 bar map sensor
Stock CSL tune configured for GM 1 bar
Stock S54 header and cats and resonator and factory piping with just an aftermarket universal muffler in the section II piece since i could not fit a muffler in the rear of the car with quad exhaust on a NON M car. all stock 2.5 inch S54 piping


Dynojet dyno (no AFR reading unfortunately. not sure why they didnt use a tail pipe sniffer at least)


296 rwhp and 233 tq 4th gear if that matters

obviously every dyno reads differently so i will take any results with a grain of salt.

consistenyl i see thta S54 with no mod put down anywhere between 275 to 285ish

if i put down 296 with just an airbox really, thats what an 11hp gain over the high end of stock S54 territory?

woudl it be safe to assume that the number could have possibly been higher if i had a proper tune or if i had the rest of the CSL proper parts such as CSL CAMS, Euro header and cats/exhaust?


im mainly curious if even though im running a stock CSL tune, that its not running properly because the fuel and ignition maps are expecting certain parts that I dont have?



Dyno Graph below
IMG_20180210_153142 by Shawn Robertson, on Flickr

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Old Mon, Feb-12-2018, 08:09:51 PM   #2
95bullet
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

On my car the stock us tune made more than the stock csl tune.

Background info:
CSL vs US tune was on same day
Stock airbox
Catless arh header
Dinan muffler
Everything else is stock

Us tune:
Adaptation had been cleared

CSL Tune:
Adaptation not cleared 1st run on dyno
Can't remember but I might have disabled cat enrichment.
Wasn't running a map sensor


P.S. Next time print your dyno graph in SAE most people here use it so its easier to compare.

Last edited by 95bullet; Mon, Feb-12-2018 at 08:23:35 PM.
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Old Mon, Feb-12-2018, 08:27:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

hmm Cool!

so you had stock airbox but catless headers and a Dinan muffler and mae 297 to the wheels.

i have an open airbox essentially with a restricted exhaust and made close or similar at 296.
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Old Tue, Feb-13-2018, 03:39:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

Are you still running the stock CSL fuel and cam tables?

The WOT targets especially are pig rich with the stock cams. Just fixing a few things in the tune would definitely get you some power.

Cams would help but so would pulling fuel. The stock exhaust is ~2 1/4", and yes swapping your headers for non-catted ones will definitely show some gains too.
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Old Tue, Feb-13-2018, 04:00:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by exodus454 View Post
Are you still running the stock CSL fuel and cam tables?

The WOT targets especially are pig rich with the stock cams. Just fixing a few things in the tune would definitely get you some power.

Cams would help but so would pulling fuel. The stock exhaust is ~2 1/4", and yes swapping your headers for non-catted ones will definitely show some gains too.
You are correct I'm still running the stock CSL tune with however it's program for a CSL engine.

That's comforting to know that if I get it tuned for my proper engine setup that I have some more power I can get out of it and that because it's running rich in certain tables that's holding me back.

I'm curious about the alpha and tune from some of these places like ttfs. They call them Alpha N tunes but are they taking into account the one bar GM map sensor at all or are they just ignoring that and doing purely ignition tables tuning.
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Old Tue, Feb-13-2018, 04:39:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

The CSL is alpha-n/hybrid speed density. It's totally different from the standard stuff in a many ways, any tune you get will be for the CSL base software.

The "alpha-n tunes" that most get for the standard M3 is a hacky implementation at best, it's more a MAF delete than anything else. IMO the bare minimum for a proper CSL implementation is a MAP sensor at the very least. It's totally possible to do it without it but you lose throttle response without a way for the engine to measure load.

You'll probably notice a significant increase in throttle response too, out of the box the CSL software feels a little "off" and dull.

I'm sure someone at this point probably has a CSL base map for stock cams which would be a good place to start. It's also possible to do 80% of it yourself with the right software and wideband. Ideally getting it dialed in on a dyno would be best.
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Old Wed, Feb-14-2018, 06:57:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

As you know the CSL is euro only so it would make sense to make a euro hardware system. Catless header, catted sec. 1 and csl cams though I think they are not a big difference from the stock ones.

@exodus: when does the csl software use the map sensor reference? I think it's been discussed somewhere but I forgot.... Is it only as compensation?
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Old Fri, Feb-16-2018, 04:51:40 AM   #8
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jozy View Post
As you know the CSL is euro only so it would make sense to make a euro hardware system. Catless header, catted sec. 1 and csl cams though I think they are not a big difference from the stock ones.

@exodus: when does the csl software use the map sensor reference? I think it's been discussed somewhere but I forgot.... Is it only as compensation?
IIRC it's 70 RF or RO (don't remember the exact unit) but it's just under full throttle
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Old Fri, Feb-16-2018, 11:29:53 AM   #9
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

What is RF and RO?

I thought the CSL software only used the MAP when under part throttle when there was vacuum post-throttle. Once the throttle angle gets over a certain point I thought it switched to alpha-n.

Either way, both MAP and alpha-n systems rely on volumetric efficiency tables to calculate the trapped air charge in the cylinder. Compared to a MAF which directly measures airflow and can compensate for hardware changes, a MAP or alpha-n management doesn't not directly measure air mass, and is dependent on the VE table to characterize the relationship between throttle angle or MAP, and mass airflow. The VE table is only accurate for a specific hardware configuration, so when you change the hardware, the VE table will need to be changed accordingly.

The CSL hardware flows more air, so if you run it on a stock US S54, then at a given throttle angle or MAP, the CSL calibration thinks that there is more air being trapped in the cylinder than there really is, so it will fuel according to the amount of air it thinks is in the cylinder, and you will end up with a rich condition at WOT because unlike new vehicles, these cars don't use widebands O2 sensors for air fuel control.
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Old Mon, Feb-19-2018, 05:13:41 AM   #10
exodus454
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Default Re: Any CSL DME dyno runs in here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctres View Post
What is RF and RO?

I thought the CSL software only used the MAP when under part throttle when there was vacuum post-throttle. Once the throttle angle gets over a certain point I thought it switched to alpha-n.

Either way, both MAP and alpha-n systems rely on volumetric efficiency tables to calculate the trapped air charge in the cylinder. Compared to a MAF which directly measures airflow and can compensate for hardware changes, a MAP or alpha-n management doesn't not directly measure air mass, and is dependent on the VE table to characterize the relationship between throttle angle or MAP, and mass airflow. The VE table is only accurate for a specific hardware configuration, so when you change the hardware, the VE table will need to be changed accordingly.

The CSL hardware flows more air, so if you run it on a stock US S54, then at a given throttle angle or MAP, the CSL calibration thinks that there is more air being trapped in the cylinder than there really is, so it will fuel according to the amount of air it thinks is in the cylinder, and you will end up with a rich condition at WOT because unlike new vehicles, these cars don't use widebands O2 sensors for air fuel control.
Relative Filling and Relative Opening, two calculated values that're used by the ECU. RF is more or less VE, RO I believe is a percentage that factors ICV and throttle opening rather than just using a standard TPS value.

It does only use it part part throttle although I don't think the throttle position is directly responsible for the switchover.

But yes, you need to get your VE table recalibrated. Even with the narrowband feedback and fuel trims at part throttle it's still going to be inconsistent at best without getting it dialed in
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