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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 06:32:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by M3R1 View Post
Were these tests performed without cats. 37hp without low end loss is fantastic. I think DA has similar packages using AP headers, will the AP headers yeild similar gains?

Sorry... forgot to put that in there... the stock baseline had cats and the modded "best" result was with out cats.

We didn't have the time or the money to test differnt cat pipes because it would require reflashing of the computer as well. As it was we swapped so many exhausts so many times, Peter/HP was nice enough to donate all the labor and several manufactures loaned parts, some even sent prototypes to see how their designs were stacking up. I'd like to think that in the end all benefited; low cost R&D for manufactures and a better end product for us the consumer.

I regret not being able to test the Supersprint stepped headers, but the stepped headers were pretty new and to pricey to ask HP Autowerks/Discovery Automotive/Bimmer Performance Store to donate especially considering the labor involved in swapping headers... we had to draw the line somewhere.

Last edited by Fly'n DuthhMan; Thu, May-29-2008 at 07:16:42 AM.
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 06:39:24 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by G3_M3_FY04 View Post
Im surprised this thread doesn't get much attention and interest after all the great effort that was put into the testing. I would definitely like to see more feedback on the findings. Guess most folks are more interested in rim sizes and exhaust sounds.

From my end, as per my post above, I'm really interested to know if the Borla V2 makes a difference or not. According to DeLellis from BPS, the v2 was created to improve the fitment and the low-end torque issues.
Ref:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=130411 and
http://www.bimmerperformancestore.co...bmw-e46-m3.htm

The low end loss of hp/torque in the excel sheet above using the full catback system from Borla is a deal breaker for me.
We only had V1 verions of Borla at time of the test, the V2 was released after Bob, Peter, and Sean addressed Borla with their concerns based on the project.

Keep in mind that the V1 Borla exhausts were developed on M3's with stock headers with cats in the headers...so the torque issue/problem with the V1 wasn't as apparent in that configuration. In otherwords, cross over location didn't become critical until you opened up the flow vis-a-vie CSL or SS headers.

For those of you interested in the custom mid pipe we made I'll try and post some pictures for you in a couple days. Its not really that cost effective, the Burns Stainless cross over is a work of art, but it set us back over $350 at cost, not including the rest of the pipes and flanges you need to bend and make. It would end up being a $1000 midpipe by the time your done and given that the stock midpipe, although raspy performed nearly as well, and the aftermarket options also performed within a few fractions of percent, it probably does not make sense to pursue that option.

Last edited by Fly'n DuthhMan; Thu, May-29-2008 at 07:19:26 AM.
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 06:44:33 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
The OP mentions that the cross-over should not be incorperated to far forward but doesn't mention the ideal location.

Where are the measurements of the ideal location?
Is the stock cross-over NOT in the ideal placement?

I am asking b/c when I did my exhaust (csl headers, race cats.......) I was informed that the cross-over is an important piece of the puzzle. As it seems that IT IS, looking over the data. It would be nice to know the exact location b/c I have that slight hesistation in the low end.
We couldn't find a beter location than in the stock location, which was just behind the transmission yoke. There are not that many places where there is room for the cross over becuase of all the bends in the system. The V1 Borla had the cross pver very far forward almost right at the header. The rule of thumb is that moving the crossover forward increases peak hp at the expense of low end torque. The trade off usually isn't that dramatic, but in the case of VANOS M3 without cats it was problematic. The issue was easily fixed by moving the crossover back to the stock location.

Last edited by Fly'n DuthhMan; Thu, May-29-2008 at 07:20:24 AM.
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 06:54:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
This info/test should have been performaned back in 2005 or 06 @ the latest. The sad part about is it those who would have benefited from this information the most have either sold their M3's or went with a more expensive route to gain HP. I know I could have benefitted from this information but with the cycle the E46 is within now, the new M3 owners do not really care about this type of technical info.

Jack, I feel you, I apologize for any delays... the testing took a lot of time and I couldn't lean on anybody more than I already had. Like I said earlier, Peter at HP Autowerks donated many many hours of his time, not to mention the hours spent on the phone with Sean and Bill Knoeblock at Discovery. Personally I spent nearly $1000 on dyno time myself. To do this testing right was a PIA because we had to swap only one part at a time, run the car on the street for 100miles to let the ECU adapt, go back to the same gas station, schedule a slot on the same dyno etc etc.

Last edited by Fly'n DuthhMan; Thu, May-29-2008 at 07:21:43 AM.
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 07:01:48 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by jacclark View Post
I'd really like to see dyno runs with each modified piece done separately..

intake
headers
exhaust
flywheel
pullies
software

So far this is pretty impressive for headers, exhaust, intake, software and pullies.

I understand what your saying, but I think I speak for everyone on this forum when I point out that there is a consensus that in order to mod a motor like the E46 M3's you cannot do it peice meal...you have to tie all the mods together, in otherwords get "compatible mods" as you can see some of the parts were less compatible than others.

For example had we tested each exhaust system individually we might have found out that they all add about the same amount of power on a stock header car...but what I really wanted to know is which exhaust system worked best with an after market high flow header...because as I said before, a good quality header combined with the proper and good quality exhaust should yeild the best performance.
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 07:55:00 AM   #36
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i am in the process of making a full custom exhaust from headers back..

i am going to use that short of x-pipe and place it in section 1 right after the tranny...
this designh is beeing used in "racing" applications here in europe since the E36M3 appeard...
i had one of these in my E36 evo...

in the new exhaust set up i am going to use 2,5 or 2,55inch tubes instead of 2,3inch that oem pipping is, from headers back
add 2 resonators in section 2 and also going to fix a custom muffler based on the gruppeM design only with bigger tubbing...

i know i am loosing power and torque in the low rpm's but in high rpms the outcome will be more than pleassing....

i need in my set up the best flow i can possibly have....

any options and suggestions are welcome...
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 08:15:42 AM   #37
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great info. thanks for posting up.

btw, random question: did you happen to notice which exhaust combos tended to have less drone?
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 05:13:06 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
The OP mentions that the cross-over should not be incorperated to far forward but doesn't mention the ideal location.

Where are the measurements of the ideal location?
Is the stock cross-over NOT in the ideal placement?

I am asking b/c when I did my exhaust (csl headers, race cats.......) I was informed that the cross-over is an important piece of the puzzle. As it seems that IT IS, looking over the data. It would be nice to know the exact location b/c I have that slight hesistation in the low end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly'n DuthhMan View Post
We couldn't find a beter location than in the stock location, which was just behind the transmission yoke. There are not that many places where there is room for the cross over becuase of all the bends in the system. The V1 Borla had the cross pver very far forward almost right at the header. The rule of thumb is that moving the crossover forward increases peak hp at the expense of low end torque. The trade off usually isn't that dramatic, but in the case of VANOS M3 without cats it was problematic. The issue was easily fixed by moving the crossover back to the stock location.
Ok. That clears up my question -- thanks
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 06:04:27 PM   #39
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very nice #'s
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Old Thu, May-29-2008, 06:29:45 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by sg_wannabe View Post
great info. thanks for posting up.

btw, random question: did you happen to notice which exhaust combos tended to have less drone?
I didn't pay much attention to the sound of the different exhaust, primarily because, as those of you that have seen my car it's totally gutted of sound deadening, with no rubber bushings in the suspension and with solid engine and tranny mounts., over the road noise I can't really hear the exhaust.
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Discussing D/A + CSL Header and Multi Exhaust System Test (Dyno Results in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)