BMW M3 Forum
BMW M3 Forum BMW M3 Gallery BMW M3 Reviews BMW M3 Social Groups BMW M3 Chat M3Forum Sponsors >>
Loading


Mobile M3forum
Go Back   BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) > BMW M3 Discussions > E46 M3 (2001-2006)
Tire Rack Buy Winter Tires Now!
Not a member? Register Now!
Register Gallery All Albums Garage Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Calendar FAQ

E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Thu, Jul-26-2018, 10:45:10 PM   #31
repoman89
Registered User
 
repoman89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 326
Reputation: 0 repoman89 is on a distinguished road
Location: Boston

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerkM3 View Post
Honestly it's just a looks and feel thing. If you hold both a vince and CMP in your hands there is zero chance you will choose the vince. The fit and finish is just superior on the CMP. The Vince just feels and looks flimsy in comparison and I will never install another rivet in option again. I do however like their front cups as they are the least intrusive option out there.

EDIT: I wanted to add that the vince and cmp serve the same purpose and the vince bar definitely gets the job done as it is designed. It's also quite a bit cheaper than the cmp so take that into account as well.
Thanks. What didnít you like about the rivet version compared to the weld in?
Jump to top repoman89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Register now and remove these ads
Old Thu, Jul-26-2018, 10:49:58 PM   #32
dutchhome
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 241
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 dutchhome is on a distinguished road

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

For what it's worth we replaced the RACP and the trunk floor in our previous M3. At the same time we also installed the Redish plates and the weld-in version of the Vince bar. Then after a few months the car was in a nasty wreck where it hit the front right corner into a concrete barrier, got airborne, and then landed on the front left corner (both wheel linkages were destroyed and control arms bent). The frame was racked quite a bit from the impact but the Vince bar and the RACP were still perfect. I know that isn't the damage they were designed to address, but I was still quite happy how it handled that impact. The shop that installed it actually cut out the bar and installed it in another E46 M3.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Jump to top dutchhome is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 12:56:33 AM   #33
aznbo187
XIII
 
aznbo187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,372
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 aznbo187 has a spectacular aura about
Location: West Hills, CA

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

I was in a similar predicament a few weeks ago and also have visible cracks without the subframe off. Ended up ordering the CMP kit (plates, topside front and rear reinforcement), along with solid subframe bushings.

I was between the Vince kit, CMP and Mason. Mason didn't have a front kit but was willing to make one if he found access to a shell, which I didn't want to wait for.

Between Vince and CMP, I don't prefer the visibility in the trunk, but it wasn't a deal breaker, I just want my subframe bulletproofed. My interaction with CMP has been excellent - responds within a day and is very thorough. It looks like both kits do the same job, I preferred the CMP as the install didn't look as "frankenstein" to me.

I'll post updates once it arrives and also after it gets installed.
__________________
no.13
Jump to top aznbo187 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 06:19:26 AM   #34
bigjae1976
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,006
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 bigjae1976 is on a distinguished road
Location: Wichita

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

I would avoid epoxy since it will likely be exposed to moisture. Or at least plan on sealing the edges with seam sealer. Rivet? Why not just weld? Welding isn't some impossible task. I would weld the reddish plates and make some custom cups for the fronts and weld them in. I'm not even sure you need to drill and thread the bolts all the way through.

I did a bolt through on all of the mounts. Used a 1/2" grade 8 bolt with a nylon lock nut, all torqued to 120ft lbs. Not hard, you just need 2 people to torque the bolts or loosen them.
__________________
2013 F30 328i - Melbourne Red
2011 E90 M3 - Monte Carlo Blue
2004 E46 M3 - Imola Red

Last edited by bigjae1976; Fri, Jul-27-2018 at 06:25:56 AM.
Jump to top bigjae1976 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 06:28:51 AM   #35
nujav
Registered User
 
nujav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 237
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 nujav is on a distinguished road

Canada




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

Vince still hasn't responded for 2 weeks since I made this post. I wonder if hes ok.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=600109

Theres a video there with the trunk flexing, if you look in the middle of the trunk floor, full screen.

I inspected again today, no cracks, once my CMP bar comes in I will make a video again to see if the floor flexes but I'm sure it wont.
__________________
2005, ZCP, SMG, 75k miles
Jump to top nujav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 07:16:18 AM   #36
Toasty
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 258
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 Toasty is on a distinguished road
Location: San Diego + SeaTac

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aznbo187 View Post
I was in a similar predicament a few weeks ago and also have visible cracks without the subframe off. Ended up ordering the CMP kit (plates, topside front and rear reinforcement), along with solid subframe bushings.

I was between the Vince kit, CMP and Mason. Mason didn't have a front kit but was willing to make one if he found access to a shell, which I didn't want to wait for.

Between Vince and CMP, I don't prefer the visibility in the trunk, but it wasn't a deal breaker, I just want my subframe bulletproofed. My interaction with CMP has been excellent - responds within a day and is very thorough. It looks like both kits do the same job, I preferred the CMP as the install didn't look as "frankenstein" to me.

I'll post updates once it arrives and also after it gets installed.
I'm definitely interested in your experiences. I too would prefer to have any subframe reinforcements tucked away, and certainly don't want to loose any trunk space, even if it's just a small amount... but if the alternative is my part of my car's frame stress cracking, then the choice suddenly becomes a lot easier. And, of course, if it turns out I can't even get a VinceBar in the near future to begin with, than that makes the CMP the only actual choice between the two by default.

Are you installing the kit yourself, or are you having someone else do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I would avoid epoxy since it will likely be exposed to moisture. Or at least plan on sealing the edges with seam sealer. Rivet? Why not just weld? Welding isn't some impossible task. I would weld the reddish plates and make some custom cups for the fronts and weld them in. I'm not even sure you need to drill and thread the bolts all the way through.

I did a bolt through on all of the mounts. Used a 1/2" grade 8 bolt with a nylon lock nut, all torqued to 120ft lbs. Not hard, you just need 2 people to torque the bolts or loosen them.
IIRC, Vince preferred rivet/expoxy over welding for a couple reasons that made sense to me. Most notably, he thought welding created additional risk (bad welds and/or inadvertently damaging surrounding chassis metal) without providing additional benefits over rivets and epoxy. Also, though I do agree that "welding isn't some impossible task", I do think the number of people who I'd feel comfortable skill level wise with welding in subframe plates is likely lower than the number of people who could competently do rivets + epoxy.

While I myself admittedly have a bias towards thinking that welding and bolts are naturally "better" than adhesive and rivets, the arguments I have heard for Vince's preferred rivet/epoxy installation method have won me over at least, even if I'm sure welding is still a totally viable and fine option as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nujav View Post
Vince still hasn't responded for 2 weeks since I made this post. I wonder if hes ok.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=600109
I sure hope we hear from him soon and that's he doing well. As I said before in this thread, I like his designs and think he's doing important work, and I'd like to see him succeed.
Jump to top Toasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 07:39:26 AM   #37
Dr M3an M3
GroupBuyingPower@outlook. com
 
Dr M3an M3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,387
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 Dr M3an M3 is on a distinguished road
Location: Columbia, SC

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nujav View Post
Vince still hasn't responded for 2 weeks since I made this post. I wonder if hes ok.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=600109

Theres a video there with the trunk flexing, if you look in the middle of the trunk floor, full screen.

I inspected again today, no cracks, once my CMP bar comes in I will make a video again to see if the floor flexes but I'm sure it wont.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty View Post
I'm definitely interested in your experiences. I too would prefer to have any subframe reinforcements tucked away, and certainly don't want to loose any trunk space, even if it's just a small amount... but if the alternative is my part of my car's frame stress cracking, then the choice suddenly becomes a lot easier. And, of course, if it turns out I can't even get a VinceBar in the near future to begin with, than that makes the CMP the only actual choice between the two by default.

Are you installing the kit yourself, or are you having someone else do it?



IIRC, Vince preferred rivet/expoxy over welding for a couple reasons that made sense to me. Most notably, he thought welding created additional risk (bad welds and/or inadvertently damaging surrounding chassis metal) without providing additional benefits over rivets and epoxy. Also, though I do agree that "welding isn't some impossible task", I do think the number of people who I'd feel comfortable skill level wise with welding in subframe plates is likely lower than the number of people who could competently do rivets + epoxy.

While I myself admittedly have a bias towards thinking that welding and bolts are naturally "better" than adhesive and rivets, the arguments I have heard for Vince's preferred rivet/epoxy installation method have won me over at least, even if I'm sure welding is still a totally viable and fine option as well.



I sure hope we hear from him soon and that's he doing well. As I said before in this thread, I like his designs and think he's doing important work, and I'd like to see him succeed.
Reposting. This is Vince's preferred means of contact:

To reach Vince, checkout his FB page, where he is more active (if you haven't already):
https://www.facebook.com/PPRnDnews
vincent@practicalperformance.se

Do not rely on forum PMs...this is not his primary "place of business".
__________________
2004 E46 ///M3 - Oxford Green Metallic II + Cinnamon SMG
IG: DrM3anM3

Mods: Genuine OE CSL Bumper, Both Karbonius and Streamline CSL Airboxes, OE CSL Snorkel w/ working Flap, OE Map Sensor + OE Air Rail, Paul Claude Custom Tune, CSL Engine management with CSL converted DME, Supersprint V1 Stepped Headers w/ Oversized Catless section 1, SS 2.5" Twin-Piped Oversized section 2, Rogue Engineering Muffler (soon to be switched), WPC treated rod-bearings, VinceBar (weld) + Redish Plates, Full Beisan VANOS lockdown, BBS LMs w/ PSS, CSL style CF diffuser, Vorsteiner CF CSL Bootlid, CSL SMG Engine DME tune, CSL '255' SMG DME tune.
Active Group-Buys (PM if Interested): OE CSL Bootlids, Supersprint Headers/Exhaust MEGA thread, New Supersprint Oversized Twin-Piped Section 2 ...and more to come!
Please PM me - In search of: Nothing at the moment.
Jump to top Dr M3an M3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 01:38:05 PM   #38
PerkM3
Registered User
 
PerkM3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,060
Reputation: 0 PerkM3 is on a distinguished road
Location: Kansas

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

Quote:
Originally Posted by repoman89 View Post
Thanks. What didn’t you like about the rivet version compared to the weld in?
It was messy lol which was the big reason and I'm a competent welder. I was also an engineer by trade before I started my automotive business. Although in theory epoxy should be superior due to increased contact = greater load dispersion that's rarely the case in an application like this. For a metal epoxy to bond properly the surface has to 100% perfect, I haven't seen an install where that is even remotely the case. So for me it makes more sense to prep an edge, weld it, seal it and know that it's good. Not to mention the epoxies people are using aren't even tested for that application and someone saying that this is a structural epoxy used on the space shuttle (I made that up) doesn't mean it's good in every application.

Call the shop and leave a message if I don't answer. I always love chatting and sharing experiences to anyone that wants info from someone that has installed basically every option out there. 1-833-RACE-CMS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchhome View Post
For what it's worth we replaced the RACP and the trunk floor in our previous M3. At the same time we also installed the Redish plates and the weld-in version of the Vince bar. Then after a few months the car was in a nasty wreck where it hit the front right corner into a concrete barrier, got airborne, and then landed on the front left corner (both wheel linkages were destroyed and control arms bent). The frame was racked quite a bit from the impact but the Vince bar and the RACP were still perfect. I know that isn't the damage they were designed to address, but I was still quite happy how it handled that impact. The shop that installed it actually cut out the bar and installed it in another E46 M3.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
That's cool to hear. We don'y typically get that sort of info so that's definitely a good worst case test.
__________________
Jump to top PerkM3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 01:53:13 PM   #39
oceansize
Kwisatz Haderach
 
oceansize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 409
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 oceansize is on a distinguished road
Location: TN

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

I had the Redish plates installed (welded) last September. Worth every penny. I'm in a vert but I'm supercharged and lowered and I damn sure drive in a spirited manner. I had the diff/rear end out of the car three weeks ago and everything looks great. I wish I could install a Vince bar but last I checked there is no plan for a convertible model.

Side note: Redish is debating the financial worth while of doing the actual install due to what it costs them vs what they charge. Their times sound really high but they certainly look thorough.
__________________
2003 M3 Convertible SMG w/Hardtop | GC Coilovers and Camber Plates 500/600 | ESS VT1-475 Gen 3 Supercharger | Stoptech Brakes
Apex ARC-8 19" Hypersilver | CSL SMG (and 255) Tune | Rogue Eng. Diablo Exhaust w/ SS Tips | Rogue Eng. Rasp Pipe
Redish Reinforcement Plates | Polyurethane Rear Subframe Bushings | Polyurethane Differential Bushings | Beisan Oil Pump Disk

Last edited by oceansize; Fri, Jul-27-2018 at 02:05:17 PM. Reason: a word
Jump to top oceansize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Fri, Jul-27-2018, 02:47:48 PM   #40
bimmerfan08
Registered User
 
bimmerfan08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 28
Posts: 6,414
In the garage:
Reputation: 0 bimmerfan08 is on a distinguished road
Location: Charlotte

United States




Default Re: Best subframe repair options as of July 2018?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I would avoid epoxy since it will likely be exposed to moisture. Or at least plan on sealing the edges with seam sealer. Rivet? Why not just weld? Welding isn't some impossible task. I would weld the reddish plates and make some custom cups for the fronts and weld them in. I'm not even sure you need to drill and thread the bolts all the way through.

I did a bolt through on all of the mounts. Used a 1/2" grade 8 bolt with a nylon lock nut, all torqued to 120ft lbs. Not hard, you just need 2 people to torque the bolts or loosen them.
Points to consider but welding done poorly/incorrectly can have its own set of downsides. Fatigue of metal, distortion of metal due to uneven heating/cooling, etc.
__________________
Quote:
For those apprehensive about DIYing...

"The most difficult part of figuring out a car, the engineering, has been done. Repairs and maintenance are simply taking parts apart and putting them back together again." - bimmerfan08
Jump to top bimmerfan08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 03:00:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
M3Forum.com and M3forum.net is in no way sponsored, endorsed or affiliated by or with BMW NA / BMW AG or any of it's subsidiaries or vendors.
BMW and M3 (E90 M3 | E92 M3 | E93 M3 | E46 M3 | E36 M3 | E30 M3) are registered trademarks of BMW AG.
M3Forum Terms of Service
Copyright ©1999-2017 M3Forum.com
Discussing Best subframe repair options as of July 2018? in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)