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Old Wed, May-15-2019, 05:21:54 PM   #21
Turb02
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

Quote:
Originally Posted by tr4ck_m3 View Post
I believe ESS uses 3.5 bar for their 630cc injectors?

So effectively 630cc at 3.5 bar gets converted to 527.1 @ 5 bar.
for easier comparision against stock using hassan's equation.
How do you get this conversion?

Currently my car has 39lb (410cc) Ford injectors. At 5bar, what would that convert to?

The ID1050x that I have on hand, based on the websites chart, at 70psi (approx 5bar) is 1350cc

So I guess Im confused why some numbers are converting to a higher CC with more pressure, and some actually lose CCs.

Still trying to learn this stuff.
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Old Wed, May-15-2019, 05:37:09 PM   #22
tr4ck_m3
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

I'm just converting 630cc @ 3.5bar to what it would flow cc-wise at 5 bar to make the conversion easier.

630 cc flowing at 5 bar would be 630 cc

630 cc flowing at 3.5 bar (ESS Aftermarket) would be equivalent to 527.1cc @ 5 bar.


technically, most tuners for other cars just put in the injector latency profiles and call it a day. Not sure if that strategy has been discussed or mentioned.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Turb02 View Post
How do you get this conversion?

Currently my car has 39lb (410cc) Ford injectors. At 5bar, what would that convert to?

The ID1050x that I have on hand, based on the websites chart, at 70psi (approx 5bar) is 1350cc

So I guess Im confused why some numbers are converting to a higher CC with more pressure, and some actually lose CCs.

Still trying to learn this stuff.
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Last edited by tr4ck_m3; Wed, May-15-2019 at 05:41:04 PM.
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Old Wed, May-15-2019, 06:59:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

Quote:
Originally Posted by tr4ck_m3 View Post
I'm just converting 630cc @ 3.5bar to what it would flow cc-wise at 5 bar to make the conversion easier.

630 cc flowing at 5 bar would be 630 cc

630 cc flowing at 3.5 bar (ESS Aftermarket) would be equivalent to 527.1cc @ 5 bar.


technically, most tuners for other cars just put in the injector latency profiles and call it a day. Not sure if that strategy has been discussed or mentioned.
Thanks for the assistance.

For anyone needing to calculate this out for their injectors, I found this calculator that helped me determine my 410CC injectors @ 5bar flow 529CC, and will flow 1356CC on my 1050s (as posted on the Injector Dynamic page)

https://www.raceworks.com.au/calcula...fuel-pressure/
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Old Thu, May-16-2019, 07:22:42 AM   #24
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

I've never seen a tune where injector latency or dead time has been changed.

According to the specs of the Siemens Deka 630cc, they are rated for 630cc @ 3 bar, or 900cc at 6 bar. Which would make them *roughly* 673cc at 3.5 bar?
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Old Mon, May-27-2019, 12:46:14 PM   #25
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

Bit late to the show on this one, but thought I'd chime in.

Having setup custom size injectors on MSS54 various times, I can say unfortunately in practice that Brian's calculation doesn't have the expected results. There is definitely more of a trial and error approach getting them scaled correctly. As you would expect, the injector latency table also has a direct effect on fueling.

For anyone wanting to re-scale correctly, I would first set the injector latency times according to your injector specs, then alter your K_TI_GA until fueling is hitting required targets. It's essential to turn off lambda control and adaption factors whist doing so, to stop them skewing results. You can then enable these once you are close to correct if required
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Old Mon, May-27-2019, 02:27:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

Looking at the disassembly, Brian's math doesn't really make sense to me. It seems to be a straight up unsigned multiplication of TI_GA against TI_F_TMOT_VSP, TI_F_NAS, and TI_F_START. So you shouldn't have to subtract from 1.
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Old Mon, May-27-2019, 02:55:05 PM   #27
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

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Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
Looking at the disassembly, Brian's math doesn't really make sense to me. It seems to be a straight up unsigned multiplication of TI_GA against TI_F_TMOT_VSP, TI_F_NAS, and TI_F_START. So you shouldn't have to subtract from 1.
Terra - yes, if latency values are set correctly, K_TI_GA value seems to end up pretty close by simply setting it as a percentage of old injectors. e.g 400cc injectors would be 260/400 = 0.65
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Old Mon, May-27-2019, 06:10:25 PM   #28
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

So looking into things a little bit, I think K_HFM_TI_RATE would be another means by which we can adjust the fueling for different injectors. From what I can see, K_RF_HUBVOLUMEN (displacement), K_RF_LUFTDICHTE (air density), and cylinder count are all factored together with K_HFM_TI_RATE to generate "RF_TI_CONST" - likely would represent the target pulse width (per RPM?) for a given RF.

Not sure if there's an advantage to adjusting K_HFM_TI_RATE vs K_TI_GA. Perhaps the former would keep the MPG calculations correct?

And on the topic of fueling, despite what we call them, I'm pretty sure the fuel maps aren't lambda maps. They're just multipliers on the base pulsewidth. Said base pulsewidth is likely calculated by multiplying (or maybe dividing, I don't know the units) RF, RF_TI_CONST, and RPM together to generate a pulse width that will result in a stoich map. That's why the CSL manages with its fuel map being 1.00 entirely - because the fueling is calculated from cylinder filling anyway.

So effectively the fuel maps end up being inverted lambda maps, but that's not really the "design" goal.

Also of note, BMW did enter the wrong displacement (3.201 vs 3.246 -- likely means the MSS54 started development on the s50b32 or the S54 initially retained that 86.4mm bore). S62 has the correct displacement entered at 4.941 liters

Last edited by terraphantm; Mon, May-27-2019 at 06:13:57 PM.
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Old Wed, May-29-2019, 08:26:23 PM   #29
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

Quote:
Originally Posted by terraphantm View Post
So looking into things a little bit, I think K_HFM_TI_RATE would be another means by which we can adjust the fueling for different injectors. From what I can see, K_RF_HUBVOLUMEN (displacement), K_RF_LUFTDICHTE (air density), and cylinder count are all factored together with K_HFM_TI_RATE to generate "RF_TI_CONST" - likely would represent the target pulse width (per RPM?) for a given RF.
Ding, ding, ding!! We finally have a winner here

And yes, injector latency tables SHOULD change and match the injectors being used. The actual latency also depends on the ECU's circuitry. The injector manufacturer's tables are merely a starting point.
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Old Fri, Jul-12-2019, 11:02:49 AM   #30
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Default Re: Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injec

in my opinion K_HFM_TI_RATE need to be corrected in case of use larger case for airflow meter

Paulclaud
if latency values are set correctly, K_TI_GA value seems to end up pretty close by simply setting it as a percentage of old injectors. e.g 400cc injectors would be 260/400 = 0.65

it's correct it's good base need to be refined from this base.

It's work i use that for M3.8.3 ecu since many year it's work perfectly
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Discussing Global Fuel Factor: Definitive & Final Guide to Calbrating MSS54 for Larger Injectors in the Coding and Tuning Forum - Discuss all avenues of coding and tuning here! at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)