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M3 Track: Racing and DE Best mod for speed is learning to get the most out of what you currently have. Tracks and DE's is the place to start!


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Old Fri, Mar-06-2009, 07:19:41 PM   #41
docwyte
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If you think you can duck out of the way when the roof collapses, I have a bridge to sell you.

It's just not going to happen. The schroths have the extra shoulder harness bit that breaks away in a crash and will give you some freedom of movement to move a bit.

Some clubs have made a knee jerk reaction (with no experience or science to justify their ruling) in regards to the schroth harnesses. Joe Marko@HMS has talked to many of these clubs and proven that the schroths are safe to use.
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Old Fri, Mar-06-2009, 09:33:59 PM   #42
ShakeNbake
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Please talk to the folks at HMS if you have questions about safety. The folks talking in this thread, while I am not challenging their experience, are not the right folks to be asking about your safety and those around you.
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Old Sat, Mar-07-2009, 02:02:36 AM   #43
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The center rear seatbelt receptacle is longer. It's the siamese one, with one short and one long tail. Just chisel or cutoff the short tail to get the long one by itself. The belt is flexible enough to slip the receptacle through the side slot.
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Old Mon, Mar-09-2009, 02:01:22 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docwyte View Post
If you think you can duck out of the way when the roof collapses, I have a bridge to sell you.

It's just not going to happen. The schroths have the extra shoulder harness bit that breaks away in a crash and will give you some freedom of movement to move a bit.

Some clubs have made a knee jerk reaction (with no experience or science to justify their ruling) in regards to the schroth harnesses. Joe Marko@HMS has talked to many of these clubs and proven that the schroths are safe to use.
?

I've seen you make this post before. No one is saying you will be ducking out of the way, of course not...you are along for the ride.

If the roof pushes on your head, it will (may) force your body to one direction of the other...the roof will move you. If you are in a harness, you are held upright and not free to be moved by the roof.

This is not a knee-jerk reaction. This scenario is tested by the automotive safety industry (former engineer for a large automotive safety company). Seat belts are, in fact, designed to afford your body the freedom to get pushed out of the way.

It is a well know, identifiable risk. Sorry your vendor doesn't feel that way...perhaps he's not the person you should be talking to?

Last edited by prematureapex; Mon, Mar-09-2009 at 02:16:55 PM.
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Old Mon, Mar-09-2009, 02:06:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShakeNbake View Post
Please talk to the folks at HMS if you have questions about safety. The folks talking in this thread, while I am not challenging their experience, are not the right folks to be asking about your safety and those around you.
Ex mech engineer in the automotive safety industry. I was asking in the context of what other clubs let you run, or don't let you run.

Funny how you recommend asking a RETAILER about your safety questions. What's Peggy the customer service rep going to tell you? I would surely be calling the manufacturers of the gear regarding safety questions, if not the NHTSA, etc.

Last edited by prematureapex; Mon, Mar-09-2009 at 02:18:02 PM.
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Old Mon, Mar-09-2009, 02:12:28 PM   #46
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How can you say that???

If the roof hits my head in a 3 pt. my body gets pushed out of the way. I can certainly bend my waist and make my head rest a lower point in a 3-pt than I can in a 4-pt (where you can't bend at all). Hypothetically, the roof cold push my head a foot or two down in a 3-pt...that's not even close to the case with a harness. I is confused...there is no compressive neck risk in a 3-pt 9or at least a greatly reduced risk of one). There is in any harness.
No ducking, just pushing.

http://www.justracing.com/driver_saf...topic.php?p=90

See joe's post. Now I know where you got ducking in your head from. I'm amazed someone so in the industry, who sells the gear, doesn't understand the problem. And no one gets injured by the roof? Well, as I've posted before....I can give oyu the name of one family who would whole-heartedly disagree with you.

Are these scenarios rare? Of course. Rare enough to make them a non-issue. Perhaps, there is no denying that. But people have to draw their own lines.

I personally don't think I find running a harness in a non-barred car a significant risk, not in the sense that it can't happen...of course it can. But considering the rarity, I'm not sure it would stop me from running one. That doesn't mean I don't see the risk, or see why some clubs have held fast to their policies.

Last edited by prematureapex; Mon, Mar-09-2009 at 02:28:14 PM.
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Old Mon, Mar-09-2009, 02:40:58 PM   #47
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Not to play the devil's advocate, I can see both of your points. There are times when someone can have *all* the right safety equipment in the world but accidents still happen. The truth is that you can never be 100% safe regardless of how many safety precautions you take in this sport.

That being said, I would have to agree with an earlier post that you should either be 'all in' or stay where you're at with regards to safety equipment. The car in stock form has been highly tested and deemed to be safe by BMW engineers. As soon as you start throwing different seats in the car, you've introduced new variables into the equation that have likely never been tested and CERTAINLY not the point that cars are tested from the factory. Unless you're ready to install a rollbar/cage, 5/6 pts, HANS, etc. to complement the seats, I wouldn't do it.

If you don't agree with what Joe's company recommends, you should bring it up with them. Maybe the two of you could learn something that would be beneficial to the community. I do know that his company is highly regarded with respect to safety knowledge throughout the BMW and BMWCCA CR community.

My $0.02.
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Old Mon, Mar-09-2009, 03:28:29 PM   #48
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I ran a Recaro SPG with stock belts for years. It's great. 90% of the benefit comes from the seat not the belts.

We also tried the Schroth 4-point and really didn't like it. It not much better than a stock belt in a stock seat and it's lot less comfortable. And they are unusable in a race seat. We tried.
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Old Mon, Mar-09-2009, 05:47:52 PM   #49
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I've known Joe@HMS now for about 15 years. I trust him to do the proper research. Remember, if one of us gets injured or killed while using his product, it causes a world of hurt for him professionally. Not to think of the fact that a lot of us are his personal friends.

I agree with what Silber writes above. There's always going to be some risk and either you go all in with seats, rollbar and 5-6 point harnesses, or you stick with the stock seats and maybe add the schroth 4 point asm's.
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Old Sun, Mar-15-2009, 03:48:10 AM   #50
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Quote:
also had an acquaintance die form that very setup, spinal compression
Given the thought of what happened to your friend, you might think about a bolt-in roll bar. I have one in our E46 M3 that does not damage the car in any way. Both the seat and bar bolt into existing holes and leave no trace when you remove them. Plus you can run a full 6-point harness and live safely ever after.

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