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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 03:09:21 PM   #11
bigjae1976
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Default Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgizmo04 View Post
Here is a thread of someone doing a valve adjustment while also doing vanos... I walked him through the procedure of setting it back. The thread also has a lot of explanations of inner workings of the engine, like just because your crank tdc hole/pin lines up, 1st cyl might not be at proper tdc because crank rotates 2x for every cam rotation, and so 1st cyl cam lobes will not be pointing at each other at 45 degrees when crank pin lines up (they will be 180 degrees out), etc.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=593360

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Nice. I think we need a separate VANOS sub forum! Mods?

What’s the sweet tooth procedure?

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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 03:09:47 PM   #12
repoman89
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

^Yep, for anyone else thinking about doing these at the same time -- one then the other. I just did them both myself and saved the valve adjustment for the end after the VANOS was in its installed and working state.

Not sure how to help OP but good luck -- the timing procedure combined with that linked thread is probably a good bet.
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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 03:10:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgizmo04 View Post
Here is a thread of someone doing a valve adjustment while also doing vanos... I walked him through the procedure of setting it back. The thread also has a lot of explanations of inner workings of the engine, like just because your crank tdc hole/pin lines up, 1st cyl might not be at proper tdc because crank rotates 2x for every cam rotation, and so 1st cyl cam lobes will not be pointing at each other at 45 degrees when crank pin lines up (they will be 180 degrees out), etc.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=593360

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LOL ! Exact same situation ! I could have written his post... I was also waiting for parts and figured why not go ahead with valve adjustment... Thanks for this, ill read through and get back if I have questions, probably very useful !
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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 03:26:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by robgill View Post
That's not my experience. I've seen the impact on a dyno, with my car. You can also physically test it just by pushing the spline in and out with the hub loose.... There are splines that limit the movement, there are splines that have full movement.

I think you are saying that the limited range doesn't matter because the actual range the vanos needs is less? That could be true for a stock tune (I've never tested), but definitely not true for a tuned car. The wrong spline will 100% limit the range of the vanos, limiting the potential HP at high RPM.
Thats interesting because I've heard the opposite from Raj at Besian.

It is important that the first tooth available engages, but at the end of the day the slots in the cam sprocket are what limit the degree of advance, so it's not like you can gain more advance from having the "sweet tooth" aligned, its just going to max out at the end of the slot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajaie View Post
This issue is forum mythology.
It doesn't matter which splines you mate and how far the hub has to rotate before matting the splines. What does matter is that you catch the first matting splines when rotating the hub.
The issue here has to do with assembly and does not affect function in anyway. There is a limited range of hub rotation as the hub bolts travel from the right to the left of the slot lengths on the sprocket. The splined shafts need to insert into the hubs and the hubs need to rotate far enough for the vanos to mate with the engine head before the hub bolts reach the left end of the sprocket bolt slots. The sprocket bolt slot lengths are limited, thus it's important to start with the hubs rotated fully clockwise (hub bolts all the way to the right on the sprocket bolt slots) and catch the first matting splines so the splined shaft can start inserting into the hub and the vanos start moving to the engine head as soon as possible to take advantage of the sprocket slot length.
The sprocket slots are long enough to allow a full spline (peak and valley) rotation of the hub before splines mate and then enough hub rotation (hub bolt travel in the sprocket slot) for the vanos to mate with the head before the hub bolts hit the left end of the sprocket slots.

I hope this makes sense.
Years from now people will still be asking about this mythical sweet tooth and how important it is to find it
Then again, I didn't ask him about aftermarket tuning.
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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 03:50:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

Quote:
Originally Posted by robgill View Post
That's not my experience. I've seen the impact on a dyno, with my car. You can also physically test it just by pushing the spline in and out with the hub loose.... There are splines that limit the movement, there are splines that have full movement.

I think you are saying that the limited range doesn't matter because the actual range the vanos needs is less? That could be true for a stock tune (I've never tested), but definitely not true for a tuned car. The wrong spline will 100% limit the range of the vanos, limiting the potential HP at high RPM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnie86 View Post
Thats interesting because I've heard the opposite from Raj at Besian.

It is important that the first tooth available engages, but at the end of the day the slots in the cam sprocket are what limit the degree of advance, so it's not like you can gain more advance from having the "sweet tooth" aligned, its just going to max out at the end of the slot.




Then again, I didn't ask him about aftermarket tuning.
First spline tooth going into the first groove on hub after hub is fully rotated cw and when you start to slowly rotating the hub ccw is what matters. What you see on dyno dips is caused by slightly improper installation of splines when mating them to vanos unit pistons without fully compressing the pistons against the caps.

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Happy to help with VANOS or any other DIY job around NorCal
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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 03:58:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

Sweet tooth is, indeed, useless-- with any state of tune.
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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 04:01:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by mrgizmo04 View Post
What you see on dyno dips is caused by slightly improper installation of splines when mating them to vanos unit pistons without fully compressing the pistons against the caps.
Will the DIS Vanos test pick up this slightly improper installation? Or only on a dyno?
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Old Tue, Jul-10-2018, 04:52:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

I have not analyzed the data or looked at correlations, but my hunch is that the vanos test would show this (somehow) via deviations in cr degrees for intake and exhaust ranges of motion (60, 50).

However, what number of ms in response over 200 or how many degrees from 60/50 for intake/exhaust show up as dips in dyno, I don't know.

Dafoe has run some dyno numbers with different ways of installing splines and seeing dyno results. Not sure if he, or someone else, can correlate the results to vanos test.
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Originally Posted by repoman89 View Post
Will the DIS Vanos test pick up this slightly improper installation? Or only on a dyno?
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All DIY: 330 ZHP steering rack, diffsonline 4.1 diff with rem polish, E60 short shifter lever, AKG black diff bushings/subframe bushings, Rogue rtab, WPC rod bearings, Beyer driveshaft, full SS (SS stepped V1, catted S1, resonated S2, SS sport), Sachs clutch/flywheel, rear main, VANOS bullet proofing with anti-rattle, valve adjustment, cooling refresh, Ohlins R&T/Swift 448f 672r/GC street tops and camber plates, AFD E85 Proflex kit.

Happy to help with VANOS or any other DIY job around NorCal
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Old Wed, Jul-11-2018, 12:11:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

Here is more detail on why I don't agree that finding the "sweet spot" is a forum myth. Took these pics during my last rebuild while inserting the spline shafts.

Position 1:
The hub is fully CW. In this position to get the "first alignment of splines" and have "first available aligned hub splines" insert you will have to rotate the hub CCW an entire tooth. The teeth interfere, you cant rotate the hub any further CW. You have to rotate the hub several degrees CCW. That is a significant amount of VANOS movement lost.


Position 2:
Again, the hub is fully CW. The shaft is removed and rotated one tooth CCW in the cam (see black marker on tooth as reference). The hub now almost perfectly aligns. Basically no CCW hub rotation is needed to insert into the "first available aligned hub splines"


Position 3:
One more example. Again, the hub is fully CW. The shaft is removed and rotated one tooth CCW. The hub now requires slightly more CCW rotation to insert into "first available aligned hub splines" than Position 2.


If you keep rotating the shaft CCW it requires more and more CCW hub movement until you end up back at the "worst" Position 1 above. Position 2 is the "mythical forum sweet spot".

Call it whatever you want; "sweet spot", "first tooth", first aligned hub spline", "Position 2 above". In my experience it matters. Position 2 is significantly better than Position 1. On a dyno, Position 1 runs out of movement and falls flat at high RPM. This consistently works for me and is a repeatable process. Hopefully it helps OP.
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Old Wed, Jul-11-2018, 12:16:55 AM   #20
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

OP here

I solved the crankshaft "jamming" by repositioning approximately the intake camshaft:
1- made sure the exhaust side splined shaft had not slipped out (so exhaust camshaft maintained its original adjustment)
2- Set TDC mark on crankshaft so exhaust side first cylinder lobe pointed approx. 45 deg towards intake cam (there are two positions of the camshaft for which the TDC mark will align on the harmonic balancer, I wanted the one at which the cam lobe point at each other 45 deg. so I know how to position the other camshaft)
3- set intake lobe of first cyl at approx 45 deg towards exhaust.
4- re-insert intake splined shaft by slightly rotating the intake cam (27mm open wrench between cyl 1 and 2)

Now I know my timing is bad but at least I can freely turn my crankshaft. I will adjust timing later.

My question now is: I will receive the crank lock pin tomorrow but I really need to get this job done ASAP. Can I use a screwdriver to lock the crank temporarily for the first steps of the rattle procedure, just to make sure it does not move too much, as I go about the rattle procedure. (Note: I will have the real BMW lock pin for the real timing adjustment at the end)

one of Beisan procedure's first steps in rattle procedure says :
Install crankshaft locking pin in timing cover bracket hole.
If pin not inserting repeat above step to achieve precise timing mark alignment.

Why is it necessary to achieve super precise aligment ? I understand it matters when performing the timing adjustment at the end but is there any reason I would need to leave it very precisely adjusted during the whole cam hub bolt removal ?

Thanks !

Last edited by E46M3ZCPILB; Wed, Jul-11-2018 at 12:38:25 AM.
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Discussing Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)