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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Wed, Jul-11-2018, 02:33:50 AM   #21
bigjae1976
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Default Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

I have, you can, you know the risks. Iíve used a mirror to center the hole.

Not saying itís a great idea.

Maybe a small deep socket would work...4 or 5mm


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Old Wed, Jul-11-2018, 03:21:17 AM   #22
E46M3ZCPILB
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I have, you can, you know the risks. I’ve used a mirror to center the hole.

Not saying it’s a great idea.

Maybe a small deep socket would work...4 or 5mm


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Yeah. Not a big deal if it's not precise when doing the work IMO. I was just worried there might be some detail I was forgetting. The only risk is getting a disturbed timing, but I already "messed up" the timing anyway and will adjust it precisely tomorrow with the correct tool...

On a side note there are some things like that that I find confusing in Beisan's procedure. For example, why are they not removing the hub bolts to remove the splined shafts in the beginning. Why "loosen them, remove splined shafts, then remove the bolts" The write up is great don't get me wrong but as a beginner sometimes I wonder "but why..." and sometimes it turns up to be important details, sometimes less...

Last edited by E46M3ZCPILB; Wed, Jul-11-2018 at 03:28:38 AM.
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Old Wed, Jul-11-2018, 03:26:23 AM   #23
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by mrgizmo04 View Post
I have not analyzed the data or looked at correlations, but my hunch is that the vanos test would show this (somehow) via deviations in cr degrees for intake and exhaust ranges of motion (60, 50).

However, what number of ms in response over 200 or how many degrees from 60/50 for intake/exhaust show up as dips in dyno, I don't know.

Dafoe has run some dyno numbers with different ways of installing splines and seeing dyno results. Not sure if he, or someone else, can correlate the results to vanos test.

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Thanks, this was my understanding and assumption as well after performing the procedure and running the test. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. My test result was very good but I can always find a way to be paranoid that I f'd something up.
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Old Wed, Jul-11-2018, 07:42:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by E46M3ZCPILB View Post
Yeah. Not a big deal if it's not precise when doing the work IMO. I was just worried there might be some detail I was forgetting. The only risk is getting a disturbed timing, but I already "messed up" the timing anyway and will adjust it precisely tomorrow with the correct tool...

On a side note there are some things like that that I find confusing in Beisan's procedure. For example, why are they not removing the hub bolts to remove the splined shafts in the beginning. Why "loosen them, remove splined shafts, then remove the bolts" The write up is great don't get me wrong but as a beginner sometimes I wonder "but why..." and sometimes it turns up to be important details, sometimes less...
Beisan procedure takes you through the process and tries to minimize potential issues you could run into. While there are other ways and diys of doing vanos work that will get you pretty close to perfect once everything is put together (which you might notice if running some detailed tests or seeing dyno dips), Beisan is the proper procedure to follow. Not everyone will be replacing everything vanos related, so it is written in an a la carte/modular style. Not all parts of the procedure require resetting the timing. Once you understand how vanos and timing on s54 works you can maybe "cut corners" and skip some steps (which I would not suggest for a first timer).

Nice job getting it back in approx time to at least be able to continue with the procedure.

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Old Thu, Jul-12-2018, 04:51:34 AM   #25
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

Beisan procedure says to fully retard timing like this:
Quote:
Fully retard camshaft timing.
Place open wrench (24mm combo wrench) on camshaft hex at front of camshaft.
Rotate camshaft counter clockwise to adjustment end position.
How do I know that camshafts are in fully retarded position ? What defines the adjustment end position ?

On a side note, my understanding of the "sweet tooth" issue is the amount you have to rotate the hub to make the splined shaft slanted splines slide into the hub will not affect the performance or timing at all.

The risk of rotating the hub more than the minimum required to insert the slanted splines is that the remaining space in the bolt slot on the sprocket risks to be insufficient to allow the hub to rotate enough for full vanos insertion.

Summarizing, the hub needs to rotate for the vanos to insert onto the head, and the rotation is limited by the size of the slots in the sprockets.
To maximise the amount of rotation available to fully insert the vanos it is required to minimise the amount of rotation used before the slanted splines begin to enter the hub.

Does this makes sense at all ?


Last edited by E46M3ZCPILB; Thu, Jul-12-2018 at 04:57:43 AM.
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Old Thu, Jul-12-2018, 05:26:23 AM   #26
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by E46M3ZCPILB View Post
Beisan procedure says to fully retard timing like this:


How do I know that camshafts are in fully retarded position ? What defines the adjustment end position ?

On a side note, my understanding of the "sweet tooth" issue is the amount you have to rotate the hub to make the splined shaft slanted splines slide into the hub will not affect the performance or timing at all.

The risk of rotating the hub more than the minimum required to insert the slanted splines is that the remaining space in the bolt slot on the sprocket risks to be insufficient to allow the hub to rotate enough for full vanos insertion.

Summarizing, the hub needs to rotate for the vanos to insert onto the head, and the rotation is limited by the size of the slots in the sprockets.
To maximise the amount of rotation available to fully insert the vanos it is required to minimise the amount of rotation used before the slanted splines begin to enter the hub.

Does this makes sense at all ?

You know they are fully retarded when the holes point up and you can get the pins through them with the timing bridge.

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Old Thu, Jul-12-2018, 01:32:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by robgill View Post
Here is more detail on why I don't agree that finding the "sweet spot" is a forum myth. Took these pics during my last rebuild while inserting the spline shafts.

Position 1:
The hub is fully CW. In this position to get the "first alignment of splines" and have "first available aligned hub splines" insert you will have to rotate the hub CCW an entire tooth. The teeth interfere, you cant rotate the hub any further CW. You have to rotate the hub several degrees CCW. That is a significant amount of VANOS movement lost.

Position 2:
Again, the hub is fully CW. The shaft is removed and rotated one tooth CCW in the cam (see black marker on tooth as reference). The hub now almost perfectly aligns. Basically no CCW hub rotation is needed to insert into the "first available aligned hub splines"

Position 3:
One more example. Again, the hub is fully CW. The shaft is removed and rotated one tooth CCW. The hub now requires slightly more CCW rotation to insert into "first available aligned hub splines" than Position 2.

If you keep rotating the shaft CCW it requires more and more CCW hub movement until you end up back at the "worst" Position 1 above. Position 2 is the "mythical forum sweet spot".

Call it whatever you want; "sweet spot", "first tooth", first aligned hub spline", "Position 2 above". In my experience it matters. Position 2 is significantly better than Position 1. On a dyno, Position 1 runs out of movement and falls flat at high RPM. This consistently works for me and is a repeatable process. Hopefully it helps OP.
There is no harm in finding the sweet tooth, but it doesn't matter. You need to remember that after you insert the splined shafts, you tighten the bolts down on the hubs. This locks the hubs to the cam sprockets, so they move together. When everything is fully assembled, pushing in on the splined shaft will phase the cam in the advance direction it will not spin the hub counterclockwise. The slots in the cam gears that allow the hub to rotate when the bolts are loose are there only for assembly, so as long as the hub has enough travel to insert the splined shaft to the correct position for assembly relative to the piston in the vanos unit, then the sweet tooth won't matter once the hub is locked down.

This is tough to explain in writing, but I hope that makes sense. It took me a while studying the vanos system in person to understand it all.
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Old Thu, Jul-12-2018, 02:52:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by ctres View Post
There is no harm in finding the sweet tooth, but it doesn't matter. You need to remember that after you insert the splined shafts, you tighten the bolts down on the hubs. This locks the hubs to the cam sprockets, so they move together. When everything is fully assembled, pushing in on the splined shaft will phase the cam in the advance direction it will not spin the hub counterclockwise. The slots in the cam gears that allow the hub to rotate when the bolts are loose are there only for assembly, so as long as the hub has enough travel to insert the splined shaft to the correct position for assembly relative to the piston in the vanos unit, then the sweet tooth won't matter once the hub is locked down.



This is tough to explain in writing, but I hope that makes sense. It took me a while studying the vanos system in person to understand it all.

Makes sense now.

The splined shafts connect the camshaft to the timing chain sprocket. The timing chain sprocket rotates on the hub. The helical gears can change the orientation of the timing chain sprocket to the cam.

I can try an make a video when I get my head back from the machine shop.


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Old Thu, Jul-12-2018, 03:08:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
The timing chain sprocket rotates on the hub.
Correct, but only when the bolts are loose. Once tightened, the hub and sprocket rotate together. This is very observable from the oil stain patterned on any used hub.
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Old Thu, Jul-12-2018, 03:48:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually

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Originally Posted by ctres View Post
Correct, but only when the bolts are loose. Once tightened, the hub and sprocket rotate together. This is very observable from the oil stain patterned on any used hub.

I meant on the hub that bolts onto the end of the cam. The timing sprocket just slides over that hub so it can rotate independently to the cam. The surface usually shows some wear from the back of the VANOS intake/exhaust hub.



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Discussing Valve adjustment + vanos work : Engine locks when turned manually in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)