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F80 M3 (Sedan) / F82 M4 (Coupe) / F83 M4 (Convertible) : (2015-TBD) Discuss the 5th Generation M3


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Old Thu, Nov-24-2016, 03:28:07 AM   #21
GO SENNA
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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Those disc diapers are to keep the wheel from nicking the rotor while removing/bolting on the wheels.
They cover the wheel studs so there is no way to put those on with the wheels attached or bolt the wheels on with the covers attached.
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Old Wed, Nov-30-2016, 06:12:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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They cover the wheel studs so there is no way to put those on with the wheels attached or bolt the wheels on with the covers attached.
I stand corrected to an extent. However, I assume the zippers mean part of that cover is intended to protect the rotor from the wheel. The ZR1 came with rotor protectors just for that purpose, and many tire shops won't remove wheels on cars with CCB's.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...otors-113.html
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Old Thu, Dec-01-2016, 06:31:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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I stand corrected to an extent. However, I assume the zippers mean part of that cover is intended to protect the rotor from the wheel. The ZR1 came with rotor protectors just for that purpose, and many tire shops won't remove wheels on cars with CCB's.

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...otors-113.html
That's crazy. I did not realize they were so fragile. One more reason to stick with steel.
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Old Fri, Dec-02-2016, 04:33:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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That's crazy. I did not realize they were so fragile. One more reason to stick with steel.
Well, your first mod with ccbs should be wheel studs!
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Old Fri, Dec-02-2016, 07:41:46 PM   #25
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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Well, your first mod with ccbs should be wheel studs!
Are the factory wheel studs weak or are you assuming slightly longer wheel studs would help with keeping the inside of the wheel off of the rotors when mounting and dismounting?
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Old Sat, Dec-03-2016, 05:35:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

Before my Gallardo, I had a 2011 Porsche 911 Turbo S that came standard with ceramic brakes. I tracked that car heavily with no braking modifications, even factory pads. I was replacing the pads twice a year at around $1500 a pop, but that was it. The brakes worked excellent, and I really appreciated having them. I was doing maybe 40 track days a year for over 2 years straight with the car. All I had to be careful with was using certain detail sprays on the wheels, as some chemicals can erode the rotor material; and using a threaded stud (from Porsche) when changing wheels to prevent dropping the wheel on the rotor and cracking it. Mine was 5-lug, not center locking. Oh and when the pads got to about half life, they would squeal like crazy. A pet peeve of mine, and supposedly normal according to my service advisor and the dealer, and other guys who had them as well.

On the flip side, I track my Gallardo from time to time as well and overheat the brakes quite often (standard steel brakes). I just changed the fluid to Motul Dot 5.1 so I'll see how often it happens now. When the factory fluid was in there, they would cut out almost immediately. With RBF600, it would take longer and sometimes be fine for a full weekend. Hoping to extend that even more with the new stuff. I put some Hawk pads in this car this past summer, I forget the exact ones, but a midrange pad that is better than stock but does not squeak like a track pad. Happy with them so far.
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Last edited by cscat87; Sat, Dec-03-2016 at 05:44:16 PM.
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Old Sat, Dec-03-2016, 10:47:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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I was replacing the pads twice a year at around $1500 a pop, but that was it. All I had to be careful with was using certain detail sprays on the wheels, as some chemicals can erode the rotor material; and using a threaded stud (from Porsche) when changing wheels to prevent dropping the wheel on the rotor and cracking it. Oh and when the pads got to about half life, they would squeal like crazy. A pet peeve of mine, and supposedly normal according to my service advisor and the dealer, and other guys who had them as well.
So the pads squeal like crazy when only at half life and cost $1,500 to replace, you have to be careful which chemicals you use so you do not erode the rotors, and you have to be careful not to bump the rotors and crack them? You are really making steel rotors sound good right now.

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On the flip side, I track my Gallardo from time to time as well and overheat the brakes quite often (standard steel brakes). I just changed the fluid to Motul Dot 5.1 so I'll see how often it happens now. With RBF600, it would take longer and sometimes be fine for a full weekend. Hoping to extend that even more with the new stuff. I put some Hawk pads in this car this past summer, I forget the exact ones, but a midrange pad that is better than stock but does not squeak like a track pad. Happy with them so far.
I really hope you mean you just switched to RBF660 and not Motul 5.1 as it has a much lower wet and dry boiling point than the RBF600 you were using and will overheat much quicker.

That car is not terribly heavy and has decent sized brakes up front so I am surprised you are cooking RBF600 fluid. I have used that in all of my cars for years with much more aggressive pads and never had an issue. It sounds like you need some air ducting for the front brakes and probably at least some more aggressive pads in the rear to make up for the much smaller rotors. I am sure you got rid of the factory cross drilled rotors too or they will start cracking a lot earlier than a plain or slotted rotor.
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Old Sun, Dec-04-2016, 12:53:30 AM   #28
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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I really hope you mean you just switched to RBF660 and not Motul 5.1 as it has a much lower wet and dry boiling point than the RBF600 you were using and will overheat much quicker.

That car is not terribly heavy and has decent sized brakes up front so I am surprised you are cooking RBF600 fluid. I have used that in all of my cars for years with much more aggressive pads and never had an issue. It sounds like you need some air ducting for the front brakes and probably at least some more aggressive pads in the rear to make up for the much smaller rotors. I am sure you got rid of the factory cross drilled rotors too or they will start cracking a lot earlier than a plain or slotted rotor.
The 5.1 was recommended to me by the race shop that does all the work on my cars. They seemed to think it would improve my situation, and they have a lot of experience with tracking these cars. Worst comes to worst, it needs flushed again with something even beefier. I have the fluid flushed often anyway so no harm done. I actually still have the factory rotors on this car, but will probably change to some Girodiscs for next season. I do not have any cracking on these yet, but I do know it can happen. Thinking of possibly upgrading to a Huracan as well, which I think is a much better overall car in every department, and miss the ceramic brakes from the Porsche for how well they worked. Braking has been the only issue with the Gallardo.
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Old Sun, Dec-04-2016, 03:19:37 PM   #29
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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Another good point. So what is the point of having ceramics? Just being able to brag that you can waste $8k+ on your brakes? They are not even shiny.

I didn't read all the replies, so my apologizes if my comments are redundant.

A friend of mine who tracks his 991 GT3 A LOT, explained Ceramic brakes to me once, and the main issue with them is longevity. They don't wear out like steel breaks, where the rotors get thinner and that's it. The issue with Ceramic rotors has to do with the density/weight of them as they wear out. I can't remember the whole explanation in detail, but basically tracking them will obviously wear them out faster, and you might not even realize it, because they still measure and look normal.

So it becomes a cost thing, because they do have obvious advantages. They work for both street and track very well, with no squealing on the street, which is a huge plus for a dual purpose car. They are way lighter, so that is a huge advantage for performance. If money were no object, I would have ceramic brakes, but it is just way too costly to changer rotors and pads that cost x times more than steel brakes on a regular basis.

My buddy who tracks his Cayman S (which came with Ceramics) also switched to Steel brakes. He wore out the pads after about 4 track days. At that point he decided to just swap brakes and save the Ceramics for when he resells the car. I drove it once for a session and the Ceramic breaks worked flawless. Absolutely loved them. Like I wrote, if money were no object, then I would stick with them, but they are just stupid expensive and don't last as long as steel ones do.
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Old Sun, Dec-04-2016, 05:04:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Ceramic brakes and track days?

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The 5.1 was recommended to me by the race shop that does all the work on my cars. They seemed to think it would improve my situation, and they have a lot of experience with tracking these cars. Worst comes to worst, it needs flushed again with something even beefier. I have the fluid flushed often anyway so no harm done. I actually still have the factory rotors on this car, but will probably change to some Girodiscs for next season. I do not have any cracking on these yet, but I do know it can happen. Thinking of possibly upgrading to a Huracan as well, which I think is a much better overall car in every department, and miss the ceramic brakes from the Porsche for how well they worked. Braking has been the only issue with the Gallardo.
I am surprised you did not know the difference in these brake fluids for how many track days you do. The one thing you want to make sure is absolutely 100% solid on the track is your brakes. RBF600 has a dry boiling point almost 80 degrees higher than 5.1 and 660 is over 100 degrees higher. I don't know anyone who runs 5.1 fluid on track. Either the guy at the race shop is new or they were trying to clear it out and that is a dangerous recommendation if you were have heat issues with RBF600. Be careful out there running that fluid.

I am sure you have to be a decent driver on the track by now with all the seat time, but do you typically drag the brakes? (I am just trying to figure out how you are cooking RBF600 fluid with good sized brakes for the weight of that car.) Or do you apply the brakes too early? If you have already had a good race instructor go over that stuff with you and it truly is the car (strange, but possible) definitely get some air ducting to the front brakes, more aggressive pads for the rear, and get RBF660. If that doesn't fix it, I don't know what to tell you. Do other guys with the same car seem to have the same problems?

I agree with you that the Huracan should be a much better car, but you must really love your Lambos. If you are having issues with your brakes, why don't you get a more track focused car? Like a GT3, 488, 458, Z06, GT350R, etc?

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I didn't read all the replies, so my apologizes if my comments are redundant.

A friend of mine who tracks his 991 GT3 A LOT, explained Ceramic brakes to me once, and the main issue with them is longevity. They don't wear out like steel breaks, where the rotors get thinner and that's it. The issue with Ceramic rotors has to do with the density/weight of them as they wear out. I can't remember the whole explanation in detail, but basically tracking them will obviously wear them out faster, and you might not even realize it, because they still measure and look normal.

So it becomes a cost thing, because they do have obvious advantages. They work for both street and track very well, with no squealing on the street, which is a huge plus for a dual purpose car. They are way lighter, so that is a huge advantage for performance. If money were no object, I would have ceramic brakes, but it is just way too costly to changer rotors and pads that cost x times more than steel brakes on a regular basis.

My buddy who tracks his Cayman S (which came with Ceramics) also switched to Steel brakes. He wore out the pads after about 4 track days. At that point he decided to just swap brakes and save the Ceramics for when he resells the car. I drove it once for a session and the Ceramic breaks worked flawless. Absolutely loved them. Like I wrote, if money were no object, then I would stick with them, but they are just stupid expensive and don't last as long as steel ones do.
Good points. I like that the ceramics really reduce the unsprung weight significantly, but the disadvantages seem to greatly outweigh the advantages, even if money were no object (which, of course, it always is to some degree).

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Discussing Ceramic brakes and track days? in the F80 M3 (Sedan) / F82 M4 (Coupe) / F83 M4 (Convertible) : (2015-TBD) Forum - Discuss the 5th Generation M3 at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)