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E46 M3 (2001-2006) Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006.


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Old Sun, Feb-25-2018, 08:12:32 PM   #811
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty View Post
If they are planning to offer both OE spec trumpets and other variants at the same time, wouldn't the reason to do so be because the alternatives could offer some advantage(s) over the original design? I mean, it's been over a decade since the CSL came out, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that over that time, people could have discovered ways to improve the original design a little bit. Or am I missing something here?
My opinion:

The original airbox and trumpets were designed by BMW's F1 team. I have little faith that someone is going to find improvements over their design. Furthermore, airbox design is not a new field, so it seems highly unlikely to me that we are going to stumble on a breakthrough here. If Streamline is building a clone of the OE CSL BMW one made by Wethje, I'm interested. If they are building something of their own design, I'm going with Karbonius.
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Old Sun, Feb-25-2018, 08:29:36 PM   #812
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
My opinion:

The original airbox and trumpets were designed by BMW's F1 team. I have little faith that someone is going to find improvements over their design. Furthermore, airbox design is not a new field, so it seems highly unlikely to me that we are going to stumble on a breakthrough here. If Streamline is building a clone of the OE CSL BMW one made by Wethje, I'm interested. If they are building something of their own design, I'm going with Karbonius.
That's fair enough, I myself wouldn't take an alternative design to OE either unless whatever changes made could be conclusively and uncontroversially proven to be worth making. That said, I'm maintaining that if you called up BMW's Motorsports department today, and tasked them with designing the best airbox for the E46 M3 they could using modern tech, I wouldn't be surprised if it differed from the OG CSL box in some way. Obviously that isn't the same as having a small independent tuner designing a new box though.

Also, on a side note, weren't there some issues occuring with new, OE CSL boxes as of late? Or am I thinking of some other CSL part?
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Old Sun, Feb-25-2018, 08:46:42 PM   #813
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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That's fair enough, I myself wouldn't take an alternative design to OE either unless whatever changes made could be conclusively and uncontroversially proven to be worth making. That said, I'm maintaining that if you called up BMW's Motorsports department today, and tasked them with designing the best airbox for the E46 M3 they could using modern tech, I wouldn't be surprised if it differed from the OG CSL box in some way. Obviously that isn't the same as having a small independent tuner designing a new box though.

Also, on a side note, weren't there some issues occuring with new, OE CSL boxes as of late? Or am I thinking of some other CSL part?
You are correct on that side note. BMW attempted to either make them in house or use a contractor other than Wethje. The results were pretty bad, especially considering the massive(~$10,000) price tag.

Factory BMW CSL MAP sensor is also a complete hack-jab that is a waste of money currently.
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Old Sun, Feb-25-2018, 08:51:52 PM   #814
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

The new boxes were made by BMW.thats why they had problems.the die wethje boxes had no issues.
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Old Mon, Feb-26-2018, 12:57:28 AM   #815
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
My opinion:

The original airbox and trumpets were designed by BMW's F1 team. I have little faith that someone is going to find improvements over their design. Furthermore, airbox design is not a new field, so it seems highly unlikely to me that we are going to stumble on a breakthrough here. If Streamline is building a clone of the OE CSL BMW one made by Wethje, I'm interested. If they are building something of their own design, I'm going with Karbonius.
Want to take a wild guess which one they used to get their mold? The snorkel flange gave it away.
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Old Mon, Feb-26-2018, 03:11:08 AM   #816
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSt|G View Post
My opinion:

The original airbox and trumpets were designed by BMW's F1 team. I have little faith that someone is going to find improvements over their design. Furthermore, airbox design is not a new field, so it seems highly unlikely to me that we are going to stumble on a breakthrough here. If Streamline is building a clone of the OE CSL BMW one made by Wethje, I'm interested. If they are building something of their own design, I'm going with Karbonius.


Same here
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Old Wed, Feb-28-2018, 08:37:43 PM   #817
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

I am going to have Antony chime in about the trumpet specs, for he will do a better job than I will and I don't want to accidentally say something that might not be correct.

That being said, I have already found a few areas on the Karbonius Airbox, trumpets included, that can absolutely be improved upon...

So, as some of you may know (if you are on any of the FB groups), yesterday I picked up a complete CSL Airbox conversion setup, which was semi-local to me.
It included nearly all OE parts, except for the airbox which was Karbonius.
- Karbonious airbox.
- OE CSL snorkel with functioning flap.
- Wiring loom.
- Brand new OE MAP sensor and GM MAP sensor
- OE CSL air rail
- OE CSL Air filter
- 2 extra spare OE CSL flap motors (in addition to the motor already installed on the OE Snorkel)
- OE SMG resovoir
- OE SMG bracket
- OE CSL dipstick
- 12x upgraded OE boot clamps
- Both OE breather tubes
- OE AiT sensor


To answer the first question that you all are thinking -- Why on earth did you buy a Karbonius Airbox when you are having a Streamline Airbox made?
Great question! I am glad that you asked! -- Also, Yes I still have a Streamline Airbox on order.

But to get back to that question you all are thinking, the answer has 2 reasons really, first is because it included everything I need for the full CSL conversion and it was fairly local to me, and with all OE parts (which is a huge plus to me) -- I needed these parts anyway and purchasing this complete set up has made the conversion much simpler for me (as it included everything, except for the DME) and buying everything together like this has saved me a bunch of money when compared to purchasing all of these parts separately. Secondly, this will also let me directly compare the Streamline Airbox to Karbonius. My buddy has an Evolve box too, so this gives me the ability to compare both of the major players to streamline’s product once it is ready for market, and in the most unbiased way possible. Direct side by side comparison, and not of the “my box vs his box” type of way, since I will own both products personally. The fact that it included everything else that I needed too (and OE) and at a good price, locally (which is rare) was also a compelling reason. In the case of the CSL bumper group-buy, I put the forum before myself in terms of priority. Meaning that I elected to have my bumper built last in the series, because I wanted the people that put their trust in me to be served first. Assuming the Airbox Group Buy runs with this same philosophy and with the shear amount of people on the list, being last will mean that I still have some time to wait before I can expect my own Streamline Airbox to arrive (which I still have on order). In the meantime, I will get to know the Karbonius Airbox, the ins and the outs (not just superficially or for a 1-time occasion) but really intimately through daily driving until my Streamline Airbox arrives to me. At least for myself, this will give me the opportunity to really put the Streamline Airbox to the challenge. Owning the Karb box and running it on my car daily until the Streamline Airbox arrives will certainly make me form an emotional connection with the Karb Airbox. The moment I experienced the Evolve box I fell instantly in love with it. I don’t anticipate the Karb box will be any different— If anything, I expect it to be better than Evolve’s. What better way to test something like the Streamline version (at least personally for one’s self) than to pit it against something you already have fallen in love with and experienced (in this case, the soon to be Karb box). I think both Evolve and Karbonius have more then proven that they are really great products and I would not hesitate to recommend them to someone. Assuming Streamline’s Airbox is consistent with the quality of their other products, and seeing the carbon CSL bumper they just released, I have full confidence that in time we will have 3 really great options to choose from, depending on your needs and your budget.

There isn't much to comment about in terms of all the OE parts that were included -- After all, they are OE -- What more can be said.

However, I have found a few areas on the Karbonius Airbox that can be improved upon, even on their latest "improved" version. First, the Karbonius box "whistles". This is a known issue. I have Karb Box #253 and it is made from their newest mold. This version was supposed to fix this whistling issue. The "whistle" comes from the ICV intake tube hole on the bottom of the airbox (the large hole in the bottom of the main box). To "fix" this, they beveled the edges of the hole, but unfortunatley this did not eliminate the whistle. The "DIY" approach is to add a T-shaped PVC pipe onto the hole. This does eliminate the issue, but on a box this gorgeous and this pricey, DIY adding an ugly piece of PVC pipe to such a gorgeous box seems silly. This should be something that Karbonius addresses while in the production phase -- Not something that the customer should have to add after shear annoyance due to the whistling noises. This is something we are looking to prevent with our Airbox!


Second, the Karbonius trumpets are not identical to the OE CSL trumpets. If you want BMW F1-team engineered trumpets, you are going to need to buy an OE airbox. The Karb trumpets are close, but they are not identical.

You can see the differences in trumpet size and shape here:








...I am not sure which version of their airbox that these comparison photos came from, but expect pictures to come shortly where I will compare my Karbonius Box trumpets to the trumpets in my stock airbox (same trumpets in the OE CSL Airbox). I will take those photos when I install my airbox.

Thirdly, Karbonius's mold they have created for their trumpets seem to be a single mold rather than a sandwhich panel. As a result, their super smooth internal trumpet faces actually have ridges on the inside. If you look closely you can see it. You can certainly feel it too. Let me show you what I am talking about!

Look at the internal edge... its 1mm thick at some places.









These ridges will cause an increase in air turbulence rather than smooth laminar flow; by how much? I am not sure. However, our trumpets will have ZERO ridges to trip up the flow.

Streamline has spent a lot of time focusing solely on the trumpets. Each trumpet is properly angled like the OE CSL trumpet (looking at you, intake runner #6). Each trumpet is made via a sandwich mold, to ensure that both the internal face (important side) and the external side have perfectly smooth, pristine finishes...with absolutely zero ridges on any portion of the inside of the trumpet.

Keep in mind, I am NOT shitting on Karbonius-- They make really great products (after all, I now own one of their products and paid for it with my own hard-earned money). I am splitting hairs here, purely because I can and because these little things we can improve upon with our own airbox to ensure a very well-thought out product prior to release. I was obviously not bothered enough by these little things for them to prevent me from spending my own personal money on this setup/airbox, but I think it needs to be pointed out -- Since we have the ability to make improvements for our own airbox.

Anyways, expect a comment from Antony to follow, where he will discuss the specifics about the trumpets in our airbox, since many of you have asked about it.


Hopefully, in time this will also mean I can make direct dyno comparisons between the Karb. box and Streamline box to see what performance differences exist (if any), while everything else remains OE BMW in terms of CSL conversion.

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Old Wed, Feb-28-2018, 09:21:40 PM   #818
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Some of those shots are definitely not their latest box.

My Karbonius box #275 has much larger trumpets (OE sized with a turned #6) and they must be polishing the insides a bit more. The seam is barely visible and you can just barely feel it in some spots. I'm glad they made improvements, but I'm looking forward to your comparisons.

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Old Wed, Feb-28-2018, 09:28:13 PM   #819
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

Your Karbonius box, what weave is it? And I'm glad you're doing this comparison.
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Old Wed, Feb-28-2018, 09:48:43 PM   #820
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Default Re: Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration

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Some of those shots are definitely not their latest box.

My Karbonius box #275 has much larger trumpets (OE sized with a turned #6) and they must be polishing the insides a bit more. The seam is barely visible and you can just barely feel it in some spots. I'm glad they made improvements, but I'm looking forward to your comparisons.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Of the pictures posted, the ones I did not take are the ones that directly compare the OE CSL airbox to the Karbonius. (their source was found here: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=529496)
*Like I said in the post, I was not sure if those comparisons were using an older Karb box -- which is appears to be. Once I remove my stock airbox, I will photograph those trumpets next to my Karb. box since this one is from their most recent mold. My box does seem to have better sized trumpets compared to the ones in the original comparison...but those ridges are present on every intake runner. All the photos of the ridges I pointed out came from my box (box #253 or from box #365 -- Both from their latest mold. I think they are on box #393 at the present moment). They are definitely polished though! Very smooth -- until you get to the ridges. It may be a minor thing -- But room for improvement does exist and since the topic was about trumpets, I figured it was worth pointing out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FK View Post
Your Karbonius box, what weave is it? And I'm glad you're doing this comparison.
2x2 weave (twill weave), just like all the other CSL airboxes and just like the OE CSL airbox. You rarely see them made in 1x1 (plain weave). We of course will offer weave options from 1x1, 2x2, to some specialty CF fabric options for those that want to go wild. Woven S-Glass will also be an option for those on a tighter budget. During the material selection process we experimented with a few S-glass variations. We are now going for a different thickness for the Woven S-glass version. We will be using a thicker fabric and in 2x2 only. When we experimented with a triple layer version that consisted of a main layer in 1x1 woven S-glass with the rest in 2x2 woven S-glass, we found that the patterns intertwine badly.
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Active Group-Buys (PM if Interested): OE CSL Bootlids, CSL Bumper, OE CSL Wheels, Supersprint Headers/Exhaust MEGA thread, CSL Airbox, Brembo, Cams/Pistons...and more to come!
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Discussing Streamline & Dr M3an M3's CSL Airbox Development Journal Collaboration in the E46 M3 (2001-2006) Forum - Engine: S54 - Max Hp: 333 hp at 7,900 rpm / 262 lb/ft at 4,900 rpm
Total Produced: 45,000+ - Years Produced: 2001 to 2006. at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)