Objective suspension comparison with subjective target audiences

[Obioban]

Before going into the meat of the thread, I would just like to point out that we can source any and all of the kits below. That said, we refuse to sell H&R coilovers.

The Addressing of the Kits
(a brief annotation by Dan Law at the request of Ian Lindvig)


TCK

Advantages:
Quality Proprietary KONI dampers w/custom front housing (also D/A rear)
Infinite spring choices within capabilities of damper @750 pounds/inch
High quality lightweight Vogtland VVS wire springs
Springs can be changed out without needing to corner balance car again
High quality Teflon monoballs throughout where applicable
Complete kits with all needed components
Strong customer service

Disadvantages:
slightly pricier than competition (GC)
D/A rear shocks rattle update: they no longer rattle
linear spring means it does not ride as well as KW

Target Market:
Three groups (determine by spring rate and shock selection):
1) Street drivers wanting a good ride, moderate handling increase, and a reasonable drop
2) Serious street/track drivers wanting to maintain civility
3) Pure track drivers looking for a significant handling increase without Moton expense


Ground Control

Advantages:
KONI dampers
Infinite spring choices within capabilities of damper @750 pounds/inch
Complete kits with all needed components
Very price competitive
Some innovative/unique product designs (sways, Front Control Arm Bushings)

Disadvantages:
Some KONI items off the shelf and or modified
Slightly worse ride than competition (TCK) at any given spring rate
linear spring means it does not ride as well as KW

Target Market:
Three groups (determine by spring rate and shock selection):
1) Street drivers wanting a good ride, moderate handling increase, and a reasonable drop
2) Serious street/track drivers wanting to maintain civility
3) Pure track drivers looking for a significant handling increase without Moton expense


PSS9

Advantages:
Dampers are good quality

Disadvantages:
Poor quality of standard progressive springs and fittings
Lack of rebound adjustability therefore springs limited
Incomplete kits (RSMs needed at a minimum – no camberplates)
Pricey when considered with incompleteness
Virtual lack of customer support from Bilstein
Poor resale

Target Market:
Budget conscious owners wanting a decent quality system with decent drop
but unaware of the benefits of the alternatives and/or of the full cost to make PSS9s a reliable setup


TEIN

Advantages:
High quality materials and manufacture
Complete kits with all needed components

Disadvantages:
Poor damping parameters at least for BMWs
Lack of spring choices
Poor resale

Target Market:
Blingers wanting a decent drop but heavily swayed by Fast’n’Furious set


KW

Advantages:
High quality materials and manufacture
Complete kits with all needed components
progressive springs means comfortable ride
Inox (stainless steel) shock body means no corrosion

Disadvantages:
Minimal spring choices
Progressive springs means car does not handle as well as linear spring kits-- GC and TCK

Target Market:
Two groups:
1) People wanting the lowest drop possible, regardless of handling tradeoffs
2) People wanting a reasonable drop and a better than stock ride, with a moderate street handling increase


H&R

Advantages:
Can’t think of any

Disadvantages:
All the disadvantages of PSS9 with very low quality dampers
Rear ride height adjustors continually fail

Target Market:
Nobody – this is crap!!


JRZ/Moton/ProTrac

Advantages:
Very high quality of manufacture and materials
Easy to get real world results from adjustment of dials
Very wide range of spring applications without revalving
Robust design means minimal rebuilds by race damper standards

Disadvantages:
Very high cost
Race quality components wherein all parts need be speced separately
must sacrifice civility to gain full benefit over traditional coilovers

Target Market:
Serious street/track or dedicated track drivers

AST

Advantages:
Very high quality of manufacture and materials
Easy to get real world results from adjustment of dials
Very wide range of spring applications without revalving
Robust design means minimal rebuilds by race damper standards
Good pricing for a race quality damper
Infinite spring choices within capabilities of damper
Complete kits with all needed components

Disadvantages:
Sold bushings everywhere means increased NHV
Should purchase shock pressure gauges for reliable use
New to US market

Target Market:
Jury still out regarding civility but definitely serious street/track or dedicated track drivers


Ohlins

Advantages:
Very high quality of manufacture and materials
Well damped as delivered from factory
Somewhat broad range of spring applications without revalving

Disadvantages:
Very high cost
Race quality components wherein all parts need be speced separately

Target Market:
Serious street/track or dedicated track drivers not caring about civility


Penske

Advantages:
Very high quality of manufacture and materials
Tend to be harsh on compression when delivered even if custom speced
Somewhat broad range of spring applications without revalving

Disadvantages:
Very high cost

Race quality components wherein all parts need be speced separately
Target Market:
Serious street/track or dedicated track drivers not caring about civility


edit: This was written by James, but I think it's a very fair assessment of some of the streetable setups out there:

[QUOTE=Vox Populi;4296760]So I figured that after a few months of ownership and some very kind friends who allow me to drive their cars on occasion, I can add some commentary to this thread.

First of all, what I purchased and why.

With just over 70,000 miles on my M it was becoming abundantly clear that my OEM suspension was shot. dead. dunzo. It had suffered through some rough years of ownership (I suspect) with the first owner which included an unaddressed torn subframe and completely shot RTABs. I needed something that not only looked good (because let's face it, while we all like to have our fun behind the wheel, it doesn't hurt having a car that looks good too) but also performed well on my M as a daily driver.

I toyed with the idea of purchasing a TCK S/A set up for a while. One very good friend of mine has TCK S/As on his VFE Stg 2+ M3 and they feel absolutely phenomenal. In fact, when I drove the car I thought I was dead set on them. However, not to take ANYTHING away from TCK and what they have provided to the M community at large, their coilover kits are geared more towards those who need the coilovers to perform on the track as well as on the street. As much as I'd love to say that I will get my car on the track sometime soon, in reality it's more of a wet dream. I don't think this is something I do until I have something else as a DD. That being said, I knew I could still get a decent performance increase and an equal level of comfort for a few hundred bucks less if I purchased a set of KWv2s. Which is exactly what I did.

I ordered through the guys at Vivd Racing and I assure you that you will not find a more competitive price on these coilovers anywhere else - I highly recommend them. Thanks to the proper facilities and knowledge base that is the Obioban residence, the install was a breeze. I did RE RSMs with the KWs as well.

Impressions:

Unlike the TCKs (if ordered through a vendor like DER Motorsports), the KWs do not come present in terms of height or adjustability. Height was a bit uneven at first (had it corrected when the car was aligned and corner balanced) but still rode pretty well. For the first few days I did nothing but toy with the rebound. If memory serves me correct there are 16 'clicks' from soft-hard which allows for a pretty wide range of adjustments with ease. I ran them almost full stiff for a few weeks and realized that by doing that I was pretty much negating any and all comfort the coil overs could offer me. Very bouncy on the highway and to be honest not very comfortable at all.

After some conversation with fellow enthusiast, I decided to soften the settings quite a bit and run a shade more on the soft side than on the stiff side. Surprisingly, I don't feel like I lost much in terms of performance but gained miles in terms of comfort. I can say I'm very happy with the settings as they are today.

As I mentioned I also had the car aligned and corner balanced (if you are in the tri-state area I very strongly recommend Bavarian Specialties for work you may need done on your car). As expected, my alignment was WAY off (suspension install will usually do that) but my weight distribution was nearly perfect. I can tell you that the car feels as planted to the road today as I've ever known it to be.



Comparisons

Along with my friend who has the S/As another good friend of mine recently purchased a set of D/As. I was pretty anxious to drive his car as that was the most recent upgrade he made along with some SUPER light 18s and fresh rubber. It wasn't a very long drive but the impressions left on me were indelible. We found a couple of very long sweeping on/off ramps where I had the chance to push the car a bit and boy oh boy was it impressive. The KWs preform flawlessly for everyday driving and a daily spirited jaunt if you'd like. However, the turn in with the DAs as well as the mid-corner feel is very, very, VERY different. It almost completely redefined 'composed' for me.

I attribute this to two reasons:

a) the TCKs run aftermarket camber plates which, even on their most modest setting, offer more camber than I am currently dialed into. I think this provides for a more immediate and 'crisp' turn in.
b) Many people say that unsprung weight is not noticeable on a daily, street driven car - I beg to differ. The Linea Corse Le mans that I run on my car in 19" diameters range anywhere from 24-26lbs. The wheels on the car with D/As were 17lbs front and 19lbs rear. That's almost 40lbs difference in unsprung weight alone. The car literally feels completely different.


Some food for thought

+I knew what I wanted and needed from a coil over system before I purchased. I knew I didn't want to slam the car (although if I wanted to, the KWs would certainly accommodate). Order of importance: 1)daily driveability, 2) performance, 3) looks, 4) price. I suggest prioritizing your requirements pre-purchase as well.
+I knew I wanted to spend less than $2,000 for the system itself (in its entirety)
+I knew that because I daily drive the car I needed strong materials which could withstand cold, wet winters
+I knew that as much as I'd like to dream about it, my car is (at least for the immediate future) a daily driven street car that will not be on the track.


Taking all of these factors into consideration I am very happy with my decision to purchase KWv2s.

Disclaimers
-In no way, shape, or form am I saying that KWs are better than TCKs or vice versa. They are both outstanding set ups which will provide for more smiles per mile than the OEM set up - guaranteed.
-As mentioned in some other threads, there is a noticeable 'pfft' noise from the struts over expansion joints or bumps at slow speeds. After having everything inspected by a reputable shop, it seems that this noise is just a byproduct of the design. I've spoken with some other members who have been running these coils overs for years and they say the same thing.
-I know that I did not mention other reputable suspension sets ups such as Ground Control, AST, and HKS (as this set up has received glowing review after glowing review). I only feel it appropriate to comment on that which I have direct, hands on experience.
-To further address my earlier comment about camber plates, I have heard through the grape vine that using aftermarket camber plates with the KWs will void the warranty provided by the manufacturer. I do not know this to be fact, but if this is something you're considering with your KW set up, I suggest contacting them directly or speaking with your vendor before purchasing.


Sorry for the novel.

Will update with pictures soon.


Happy motoring!

-James-/QUOTE]

[johnhk79]

cool stuff thanks

[calvinf1]

Congrats Ian! Ian is someone that is definitely reliable and and offer advice and support on suspension needs! Plus he is on the forum almost daily

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by calvinf1

Congrats Ian! Ian is someone that is definitely reliable and and offer advice and support on suspension needs! Plus he is on the forum almost daily

Almost? I check it before bed at night and when I wake up in the morning



Thanks

[Cruzer]

Interesting....

[///Malicious]

Ian, you're officially a sponsor. Damn, that was fast.

Hopefully I will order stuff from you guys again soon. Still waiting on those Powerflex FCABs - can't wait to finally install them

[///Bruce]

AST is new to me. If I read your write up correctly, there are an infinite amount of configurations which might get the average layman in trouble in attempting to 'design' the right package for their car.

But I do have a question about your comment regarding noise coming from the TCK rears. Any idea from anyone you've dealt with as to why this occurs? I ask because I was very very close to going with the TCK kit before I finally chose QC. Their CO kits are good, but I had a lot of problems with their front sway bar being clunky due to lack of room of the bar banging against the front engine chassis lip where the clamps bolt up to.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by ///Bruce

AST is new to me. If I read your write up correctly, there are an infinite amount of configurations which might get the average layman in trouble in attempting to 'design' the right package for their car.

But I do have a question about your comment regarding noise coming from the TCK rears. Any idea from anyone you've dealt with as to why this occurs? I ask because I was very very close to going with the TCK kit before I finally chose QC. Their CO kits are good, but I had a lot of problems with their front sway bar being clunky due to lack of room of the bar banging against the front engine chassis lip where the clamps bolt up to.

The TCK DA rear rattle comes from the valving inside the shock. They have a new design submitted to koni that doesn't rattle, but koni move so slowly that it wouldn't surprise me if we didn't see it for a year.

QC? Link?

[THEHOUNDER]

Originally Posted by Obioban

The TCK DA rear rattle comes from the valving inside the shock. They have a new design submitted to koni that doesn't rattle, but koni move so slowly that it wouldn't surprise me if we didn't see it for a year.

QC? Link?

Have koni d/a's and no rattle...maybe they're broken?


Great work as always!!!

[///Malicious]

Originally Posted by THEHOUNDER

Have koni d/a's and no rattle...maybe they're broken?


Great work as always!!!

THis has been discussed in depth. There is no rule of thumb when it comes to rattle from the rear of d/a TCK coils. If you buy rear D/A, you risk having this rattle, but again it doesn't mean that you absolutely will experience the rattle.

What many opt for instead is D/A fronts and S/A rear.