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View Poll Results: Which daily driven m3 would be best to turbo?
E36 m3 3 18.75%
E46 m3 13 81.25%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Tue, Apr-24-2012, 10:48:30 AM   #11
pbonsalb
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Default Re: Turbo e36 or e46?

The AA Renegade kit with the C38-91 supercharger recently made 516/385 on a car that had some additional breathing mods. Assuming it did that on pump gas, it is probably about equal to a turbo kit on pump gas on an E46M3 and maybe better.

Due to the high compression, limited boost can be fed into the motor at low to mid rpm with a turbo. The centrifugal cannot make much boost at low to mid rpm so it is ideally suited to high compression. The next issue is the 8000 rpm limit, which is a sign that the S54 is a high revving low torque motor. With 3.2L of displacement, the only way to get big power in naturally aspirated form is by trading low end power for high end power and revving the engine higher. It is the only way to make it breath well enough. The more radical cams that are necessary to make power at 8000 rpm necessarily make little power at low to mid rpm, even with dual vanos adjusting cam timing to limit overlap (when the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time) to the extent reasonably possible. Put a turbo on such an engine and it cannot do its usually great job of filling the engine with boost at low to mid rpm.

You can see this if you study an HPF pump gas no meth dyno. Compare that to a stage 2 centrifugal dyno (can't compare to a stage 1 centrifugal -- the centrifugal will lose). The two are very close. Substitute an AA Renegade dyno (not sure I have seen one yet -- just the final number on a modified car of 516/385) and the centrifugal is probably doing better than the pump gas no meth turbo.

The turbo definitely has more potential. Add meth to raise the octane and timing can be bumped and/or boost can be raised without fear of destroying the high compression engine. The turbo runs away from the centrifugal when fed meth and on higher boost. The turbo can also switch between meth with high boost and back to pump gas and low boost very easily. It is a pain to change boost on the centrifugal -- certainly nothing you can do while driving.

I am waiting to see what the Maximum Psi and Technique Tuning E46 M3 turbo does. TT is an awesome tuner (I run a TT turbo tune on my E36 M3 turbo) and I suspect the result will be better than HPF's pump gas results. However, TT also tends to be conservative, so I am not sure there will be a meth tune for more power.
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Old Wed, Apr-25-2012, 05:58:26 AM   #12
Saps
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Default Re: Turbo e36 or e46?

Thanx ^^ yea that does make sense to me. I think I may have to get in contact with TT and HPF for more info.
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Old Tue, May-01-2012, 10:09:04 PM   #13
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Default Re: Turbo e36 or e46?

Any ideas when they will be coming out with these new setups
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Old Mon, Jun-04-2012, 03:04:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: Turbo e36 or e46?

Quote:
Originally Posted by curiouz_g View Post
You can always change compression ratios on motors by swapping out the pistions to lower comp ones so I wouldnt be worried with that. The E46 should be able to hit 500whp on pump gas without having to change cams or pistons. The E36 however will require cams and pistons to be swapped out.
"The E36 however will require cams and pistons to be swapped out." Don't agree that it "requires" cams and piston's to reach 500whp on an E36M. An s52 obd1 with TRM stage 2 kit can reach these goals with just a .140 MLS HG. But I do agree you "should" rebuild the engine properly with piston's, cams and etc., to could get 500whp at a lower PSI. Which I feel over all would make a more reliable car if tune and built properly. I remember seeing a guy get 500+ at 15 PSI on bimmerforums. here it is http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1744288
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Old Mon, Jun-04-2012, 01:55:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Turbo e36 or e46?

The E46M3 makes less than 500 rwhp on pump gas without meth. Maybe 450 rwhp. You can see the dynos posted by HPF:

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/imag...HPF/Stage1.gif

This is because boost is limited by the compression and available octane. The E36M3 easily hits 500 rwhp on pump gas. This is because boost is much higher since it is easily lowered through a thicker headgasket (no one has done this yet for the E46M3). I have such an E36M3 and have run it on the dyno.

Feed the E46M3 race gas or meth, and it probably will reliably make more than the E36M3.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/imag...HPF/Stage2.gif

This is because the E46M3 has stronger internals than the E36M3. The E36M3 stock rods will bend or break by about 600 rwhp and possibly sooner, depending on the torque curve of the motor. The E36M3 has made 600 rwhp on pump gas with stock rods, but the longevity is questionable. ICS did some dynotesting a few years ago, making as much as 625 rwhp.

The turbo E36M3 makes more torque per horsepower than the turbo E46M3. My 521 rwhp E36M3 makes 517 lbs rwtq and it is all there by 3900 rpm on the dyno and sooner on the street. This is more torque than even the stock block stock compression turbo E46M3 on race gas and meth.

Build the engines and both can make 1000 rwhp. It has been done on both. Not on pump gas. The better breathing of the E46M3 should allow it to make more power with less boost, even when both engines are fully built.
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Discussing Turbo e36 or e46? in the Forced Induction (F/I) Forum - Discuss the ever growing F/I options here! at BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)