BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X)

BMW M3 Forum.com (E30 M3 | E36 M3 | E46 M3 | E92 M3 | F80/X) (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/index.php)
-   E46 M3 (2001-2006) (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   M3 SMG pump reconditioning (http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=413137)

RedM3/4 Thu, Jul-26-2012 05:19:07 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
Steve, Thanks for all the great info! A couple of questions:
1. Do you have everything back together and did this in fact solve the pump problem?
2. Can you see on the case any notation of who manufacures the motor?
-------------------------------------
One other thing for others considering this: If you can find a good auto-electric or a motor shop, they should be able to bench test the armature to determine if a rewind is needed. I expect most often it would NOT be needed. If this were the case, the cost of the rest of the work would be well under half, since the rewind is both the highest part of labor and (most likely) parts.

ADS

SteveEvans Thu, Jul-26-2012 05:26:46 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
The rewind company messed up the bearing fitment, so it went back and they're sorting it.

Steve

SteveEvans Mon, Aug-06-2012 08:40:01 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
1 Attachment(s)
I've been waiting for the gearbox to complain again to get an indication of the temperature at which the problem occurs...

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1344281872

For some reason the values in the subsequent errors are junk, but the first instance confirms a high temperature. Looks like the resistor fix may be enough for my box for now.

However, back to plan B... Just got the pump motor back... so I'll go take some photos.

Steve

RedM3/4 Mon, Aug-06-2012 09:54:47 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
Thanks for your update. Back to your original post, when the pressure failed to rise, was the pump running and not making pressure, or did it not run again until after the fault light came on? This is all GREAT info!

Hope the new motor sets it right!

ADS

SteveEvans Mon, Aug-06-2012 10:00:55 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
5 Attachment(s)
So, here's the reconditioned pump motor. Apologies for the size of these images, but I thought that clarity would be appreciated.

The motor was reconditioned by Robson & Francis in the UK.

New windings and brushes as you can see below. You can see that the brushes have been soldered to the old brush wires. Recrimping them evidently wasn't an option. Also note (I've only just spotted it!) the drive dog above the motor than links the motor output and pump input shafts.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1344285360

Below you can see that there's a suppression cap (blue). This had a rogue wire pointing out and a corresponding cut wire that looked like it was intended to connect to the motor case. Unsure why that would be there I removed it and bent to rogue wire well out of harm's way.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1344285360

I'd been told that the silicone seal for the motor casing had been replaced, but looking at the two images above it's clear that it hasn't.

Also, as shown in the images below, there should be another seal around the flange on the end of the motor (with the small holes in it) which I'd made a point of asking the rewind company to be careful with but they not only removed it, but also lost it!

Worse, note how that flange (with the holes in) has been badly chipped when they levered out the motor end plate. I've managed to remove it with no such damage, but hey, I'm no expert!!!! Rather frustrating when I'd taken such care.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1344285360

The above will be addressed by the careful application of silicone sealant when refitting the motor (photos to come) when I refit it to the pump housing to make the join water-tight.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1344285360

Whilst I'm a bit annoyed at the fact that the end of the motor was damaged, Robson & Francis are not the only motor reconditioners who've had this issue. See below an image from Eurton Electric who've done exactly the same.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1344285360

The trick to removing the casing is simple. Undo the two bolts holding the motor casing to the pump, and then gently lever the casing away from the body. I found that the end plate and armature preferred to stay attached to the pump body than the motor housing. If you manage to separate the casing thus I suggest you take LOTS of photographs and make it very clear to the rewind company what you expect of them.

Steve

SteveEvans Mon, Aug-06-2012 10:09:16 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RedM3/4 (Post 1065667840)
Thanks for your update. Back to your original post, when the pressure failed to rise, was the pump running and not making pressure, or did it not run again until after the fault light came on? This is all GREAT info!

Hope the new motor sets it right!

ADS

The motor ran again and the car didn't even jump out of gear. I suspect that the hydraulic fluid was indeed rather hot (the temperature sensor may be telling the truth) as the pump was re-priming every 35s or so, the pressure slowly bleeding down when I was reading out the error code. It that normal? It rather suggests that the pump doesn't have a non-return valve (I thought it might be incorporated in the pressure relief value as it's not in the pump itself). Either that or I have a leaky cylinder perhaps?

I hope the fact that I'm trying to diagnose the pump on the car and recondition another isn't making this thread confusing!

EDIT: Sorry, the above relates to my post today! Regarding my "original" post, the pump wasn't running when the light came on, but started running again shortly thereafter, but the light stayed on.

Steve

RedM3/4 Tue, Aug-07-2012 03:18:31 AM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
I thought you were shifting gears and the pressure was lowering when I read the original post. I make same assumption on the valve in the valve body, that it bypasses at 85 bar and is also a check valve, but have no way to prove that. Accumulator problem could also cause the bleed down, or as you say, a cylinder could be leaking. I don't see a way to determine which is occurring without gauges on all the lines between the solenoids and cylinders.

I didn't know if you intended to only put the rewound motor in your existing hcu or put it back on the 2nd hcu you have and swap the complete units. But since the 2nd pump looks good, guessing you'll swap entire units.

ADS

SteveEvans Tue, Aug-07-2012 08:07:23 AM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
I was shifting gears; back and forth between first and second which you can do whilst stationary.

With 137K miles on the car replacing the whole unit makes sense. I'm not sure how much bleed down is normal. It would be great to have a new car to compare against at the moment!!!!

My concern is that a worn roots pump results in bleed down, so the pump has to run more often, warming the fluid, increasing the leakage as viscosity drops, ultimately resulting in motor burn out. So is the dead motor a symptom of a bad pump unit?

Steve


Steve

RedM3/4 Tue, Aug-07-2012 04:05:32 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
Certainly a possible progression, but was there any wobble in the gears while laying in their bearings? They look fine in your pic, a bit dirtier than the one I pulled apart, but ultimately they're bathed in oil, these pumps (and hydraulics in general) tend to run very, very long life cycles. But your motor seems shot. I've learned from user Budbundy that it appears to be the same motor in the ABS pumps -unfortunately, motor is not sold separately. But I am wondering if the heat due to the location, no vents, fan, or way to dissipate heat, and duty cycle, might be a stretch. Many, but not all pumps, start failing more or have their earliest problems under high temps; the hydraulics don't care about the heat, the motor does. So I wonder if the motor itself is the whole problem on lots of these.
No way to tell unless somebody just replaces the motor to see.

ADS

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveEvans (Post 1065668778)
I was shifting gears; back and forth between first and second which you can do whilst stationary.

With 137K miles on the car replacing the whole unit makes sense. I'm not sure how much bleed down is normal. It would be great to have a new car to compare against at the moment!!!!

My concern is that a worn roots pump results in bleed down, so the pump has to run more often, warming the fluid, increasing the leakage as viscosity drops, ultimately resulting in motor burn out. So is the dead motor a symptom of a bad pump unit?

Steve


Steve


SteveEvans Thu, Aug-16-2012 11:30:30 PM

Re: M3 SMG pump reconditioning
 
5 Attachment(s)
The motor rewind has not been as straightforward as I had hoped. The bearings, when pressed onto the motor shaft, do not come up to a shoulder or spacer to set the correct distance. As the company performing the rewind didn't note the bearing position prior to removal of the old bearings, fitting the new ones has been a bit of a challenge.

The rear bearing is fitted flush with the end of the shaft which is simple to achieve. The front bearing must be fitted such that the dimension between the points indicated below is 7mm. This ensures correct drive engagement.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1345155665

The next issue is the loss of the end seal as previously described. I measured the housing and motor dimensions and determined that there was a 2mm gap between the end of the motor and the bottom of the housing recess. I was fortunately able to find a silicone rubber washer (from a B&Q ceiling light fitting) that was 2.2mm thick. I had to cut a section from it, but it fits nicely.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1345155890

There is also a small section of the motor end plate which required filling with a small block of rubber, thus.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1345155890

Hopefully the resulting seal will be watertight.

Final assembly looks as below.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1345156114

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/attac...1&d=1345156114

Steve


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:22:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2017 M3Forum.com