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X350
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 01:28:31 AM
The shop where I get my work done at was holding a BMW dyno day today so I thought it would be interesting to see what the new K&N typhoon intake would do, so I did a base line dyno installed the intake and did some more pulls here are the results.

Stock: 281 RWHP peak at 7,800 RPM

K&N: 270 RWHP peak at 7,800 RPM :nixweiss:

The only performance mod I have is Dinan stage 1 ECU.

Both pulls included 3 runs before and after.

Weather was cold "rain".

Im not sure why the lose of 11 RWHP. We were all very suprised and double checked all the dyno settings but all 3 runs were the same. I am going back next week to see if the results change.

If anyone has actually done a before and after dyno and got different results with this intake let me know.

I will try to get the Dyno sheet scanned and posted.

BTW saw a M5 with Dinan mods put down 379 RWHP today was nice :thumbsup:

MLINER
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 01:40:30 AM
WOWOW,That is very weird,you should've been around 290rwhp with the intake.

ArtM3
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 01:44:04 AM
The shop where I get my work done at was holding a BMW dyno day today so I thought it would be interesting to see what the new K&N typhoon intake would do, so I did a base line dyno installed the intake and did some more pulls here are the results.

Stock: 281 RWHP peak at 7,800 RPM

K&N: 270 RWHP peak at 7,800 RPM :nixweiss:

The only performance mod I have is Dinan stage 1 ECU.

Both pulls included 3 runs before and after.

Weather was cold "rain".

Im not sure why the lose of 11 RWHP. We were all very suprised and double checked all the dyno settings but all 3 runs were the same. I am going back next week to see if the results change.

If anyone has actually done a before and after dyno and got different results with this intake let me know.

I will try to get the Dyno sheet scanned and posted.

BTW saw a M5 with Dinan mods put down 379 RWHP today was nice :thumbsup:

car might have required some time for the ECU to adapt, but that is strange...

MLINER
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 01:45:29 AM
Yea you should've tooken a drive out with the new intake so the car gets used to it.

Kuroshi
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 01:46:43 AM
You should always reset the ECU before each dyno pull if you can and definitely after any mod. Since I'm new to the M3 realm I'm not even sure what can be done to quick reset the ECU other than disconnecting the battery. Is there a method other than that for resetting the ecu?

Tiago
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 03:14:03 AM
Is there a method other than that for resetting the ecu?

Yes, there is:

1. Turn to the first key position.
2. Hold down the mileage reset switch on the left until 'test 1' appears, dont let go, then quickly and continously press the button until 'test 19' appears.
3. Wait and it will intiate the system by showing '19.0' then it switches to 'log off' mode then it goes to 'log in' mode (automatically). Press it when appears "log off".
4.Once you have that set up, choose the menu 21.0 - Software Reset (effect as well as battery removal).

boxed
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 03:26:09 AM
281RWHP seems right for stock, maybe your ECU had to get used to it like above said.

Need4Speed05
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 03:30:52 AM
Please try and get the dyno sheets posted - very interesting!
Also keep us posted when you go back to the dyno.

How did you get the car to go to redline on the dyno?

Does the car feel like it lost power on the street??

Thanks

Rated///M
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 05:43:02 AM
Dinan????????

X350
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 06:51:58 AM
Im going to reset the ECU tonight and re-dyno the car this week.

I believe the Dinan ECU allowed me to dyno at redline. There was a stock M5 that had trouble on the Dyno today with the ECU cutting power at high RPM's while the M5 with Dinan ECU and mods had no trouble going to redline.

The car feels strong and sounds great, Im hoping the ECU just needed to adjust.

I will post the sheet soon as I can.

BMWGuy206
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 08:41:11 AM
Yes, there is:

1. Turn to the first key position.
2. Hold down the mileage reset switch on the left until 'test 1' appears, dont let go, then quickly and continously press the button until 'test 19' appears.
3. Wait and it will intiate the system by showing '19.0' then it switches to 'log off' mode then it goes to 'log in' mode (automatically). Press it when appears "log off".
4.Once you have that set up, choose the menu 21.0 - Software Reset (effect as well as battery removal).

Thats a reset procedure for the Instrument Cluster only.

Disconnecting the battery does NOT reset Engine ECU (DME) Adaptations. That only works on 95 BMWs or older.

2004m3INjune
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 08:59:41 AM
um..whats with this previous post???

M3tor2nR
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 09:07:48 AM
this isn't the first time I've read/heard about losing power with aftermarket intakes. :banghead:

Need4Speed05
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 08:15:38 PM
Hey, does anyone else out there have any back to back dynos of this intake?

Any other feedback? Thanks...

Need4Speed05
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:45:18 AM
Has any other cars lost power with this intake???

Any updates??

Grimm333
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:56:15 AM
281rwhp STOCK??? i think that is a little off...

usually they dyno 265-275rwhp....not 281rwhp...

make sure the dyno was calibrated right...also was your SW reflashed due to the new mod? give it some time to adapt...

MikeR
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 04:14:58 AM
ditto ^ :thumbsup:
281rwhp STOCK??? i think that is a little off...

usually they dyno 265-275rwhp....not 281rwhp...

make sure the dyno was calibrated right...also was your SW reflashed due to the new mod? give it some time to adapt...

Nixlimited
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 04:56:34 AM
The K&N makes power, I have seen dynos that show it, and there are many testomonials that indicate it as well.

I am a little biased since I am a K&N test car :)

Irrenarzt
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:32:29 PM
car might have required some time for the ECU to adapt, but that is strange...

Should see the bigger gains BEFORE adaptation, not after.

Irrenarzt
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:35:36 PM
Funny thing is my car feels stronger after going back to the stock intake (took off the series 69).

ArtM3
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:39:24 PM
Should see the bigger gains BEFORE adaptation, not after.


why? :nixweiss:

RagingLamb
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:39:52 PM
Should see the bigger gains BEFORE adaptation, not after.

Why is that?

Irrenarzt
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:50:17 PM
Adaptation is the computer adjusting parameters to try to reduce fuel consumption and emissions.

When you add a mod, best thing may be to dyno right away so the best case numbers will be generated. For instance, stock car is dyno'd at 280 rwhp (stonger of our cars for sure but not unheard of) then intake is installed, you will see the biggest delta or spread (maybe 298 if lucky). After adaptation, the computer will adjust/optimize the operating parameters to yield best case emissions/mileage which in turn will reduce max power somewhat. This is why serious race teams clear the computer with a GT1 Modic before each race so the cars are starting fresh at max power before adaptation brings these values down.

Say a typhoon yields 18 rwhp before adaptation. It will for sure yield lower numbers after adaptation (perhaps between 6-10?). You could wait for adaptation to take place before dynoing but you will get lower values. That may be a better measure of how much power a mod actually makes however.

AudiOn19s
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 03:56:01 PM
I'm going to bump this out of curiosity on any updates. I am currently trying to decide between the K&N typhoon or if it's worth the money to get the AFE intake.

Andy

RagingLamb
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 04:02:02 PM
Adaptation is the computer adjusting parameters to try to reduce fuel consumption.

When you add a mod, best thing may be to dyno right away so the best case numbers will be generated. For instance, stock car is dyno'd at 280 rwhp (stonger of our cars for sure but not unheard of) then intake is installed, you will see the biggest delta or spread (maybe 298 if lucky). After adaptation, the computer will adjust/optimize the operating parameters to yield best case emissions/mileage which in turn will reduce max power somewhat. This is why serious race teams clear the computer with a GT1 Modic before each race so the cars are starting fresh at max power before adaptation brings these values down.

Say a typhoon yields 18 rwhp before adaptation. It will for sure yield lower numbers after adaptation (perhaps between 6-10?). You could wait for adaptation to take place before dynoing but you will get lower values. That may be a better measure of how much power a mod actually makes however.

Interesting! Didn't know that, thanks.

Grimm333
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 07:05:59 PM
Maybe the dyno's were mixed up by some odd chance??

281rwhp is still too high regardless of adapation...

Irrenarzt
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 07:34:27 PM
Actually some people have reported dynos as high as 298 for stock cars. All measurements are subject to some degree of deviation from the true value.

ArtM3
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 07:52:17 PM
Adaptation is the computer adjusting parameters to try to reduce fuel consumption and emissions.

When you add a mod, best thing may be to dyno right away so the best case numbers will be generated. For instance, stock car is dyno'd at 280 rwhp (stonger of our cars for sure but not unheard of) then intake is installed, you will see the biggest delta or spread (maybe 298 if lucky). After adaptation, the computer will adjust/optimize the operating parameters to yield best case emissions/mileage which in turn will reduce max power somewhat. This is why serious race teams clear the computer with a GT1 Modic before each race so the cars are starting fresh at max power before adaptation brings these values down.

Say a typhoon yields 18 rwhp before adaptation. It will for sure yield lower numbers after adaptation (perhaps between 6-10?). You could wait for adaptation to take place before dynoing but you will get lower values. That may be a better measure of how much power a mod actually makes however.

I'm no automotive control expert, but I do have extensive experience with adaptive control systems for various processes.

It would seem to me the car would run more efficiently after it had a chance to adapt it's maps to the new airflow parameters. More efficient meaning, more power for a given air/fuel quantity.

When I reset my ECU, the car runs like crap for 10 to 15 miles, after which it begins to smooth out and make power. Which seems to imply, if you change physical engine parameters, it needs time to adapt to the change(s).

It would seem to me, the more the car is run under a set of parameters, the more efficient it would run, the maps could advance the timing closer to the edge, so to speak, it starts out conservative, and expands the boundries as the engine is excercised.

If you change those parameters, i.e., intake mods, it would need some time to readjust in order to find it's new limits. Reseting the ECU may speed up this process, but you would need to run the engine under varying conditons in order for it to 'learn' these new boundries & limits.

this is my educated guess, any experts want to chime in? LOL

Grimm333
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 07:56:47 PM
298 on mustang or dynojet?

NoSoup4U
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 07:59:18 PM
Went to ask an Expert (person that Jim Conforti says he would recommend to tune BMW's if not himself) re: Irrezart's post.

His response:

Not necessarily true.

Adaption's purpose is to compensate for the variances between engines and operating conditions. Consider that the ECU/SW between two engines (from the same manufacturer of course) is IDENTICAL (bit for bit, byte for byte). But the engines that software controls can vary slightly from one to another (1%, 2%, 10%, etc.). The ECU thus needs to adapt to this production tolerance/variation. Thus, we have ADAPTION.

ACCURATE results of any mod are only achieved after adaption has had a chance to occur. If adaption hasn't occured, there is the chance that the results aren't valid, because they're a 'fluke' and non-repeatable.

If power is lost after adaption, that indicates that the part throttle maps aren't ideally tuned to the engine in question. Adaption will bring those PT maps inline, but at the same time, cause the WOT maps to change by the same amount. This obviously alters the WOT maps, which could cause the power gain to drop (or nullify). On the other hand, adaption can also cause the power gain to increase as the ECU better learns and fine tunes itself to the engine.

As you can see ... he knows his stuff. Probably one of three people that have broken down the BMW code all the way.

Grimm333
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 08:17:29 PM
Went to ask an Expert (person that Jim Conforti says he would recommend to tune BMW's if not himself) re: Irrezart's post.

His response:



As you can see ... he knows his stuff. Probably one of three people that have broken down the BMW code all the way.


and there you have it...the answer on adapation...good one :thumbsup:

Antwerp
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 08:49:09 PM
I need to search for a ECU reseter...

Antwerp
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 08:50:11 PM
I want to 'retrain' mine. I do this on my WRX every 6 months. :thumbsup:

Irrenarzt
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 08:53:19 PM
298 on mustang or dynojet?

Neither, 298 is the biggest measurement and the lowest shows how big a spread these measurements are subject to. Some serious standard deviation on these.


http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6124707-1.html

As for the adaptation, this guy knows more than me, I'll be the first to admit that. I was just thinking that you would make bigger numbers before the car had a chance to adjust to the modification.

Hopefully more people with access to dyno work will test their K&N's so we can get a better idea of how much average power the intake really makes.

snook
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 08:59:42 PM
whoops....I see the adaptation question has already been answered....my bad....

Rob's Archive
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 10:57:14 PM
I have the answer flat and simple...as I ran into the same issue when dyno'ing my m5 after installing the AA CAI.

For no other reason we (AA's techs and myself) could not figure out why my new intake was only making 10hp max gain on the first run and got less and less on every other. At first we thought it would be the adaptations so we tried to reset those using a OBD interface...drove the car some around and then redyno'd the car...still even less power.

No ideas were able to be figured out till...we went back and looked at the adaptation values again. It was stuck at 1, and had not really adapted to the new CAI



DINANS SOFTWARE HAS ADAPTATION LOCKOUT ABILITY...HENCE THIS IS WHY YOU ARE FORCED TO BUY NEW SOFTWARE STAGES EVERYTIME YOU BUY LEVELS OF HIS PRODUCTS.

Soon after returning home, distraught as to why my 1000 dollar intake made less and less power over a full day of dyno runs, I took AA's recommendation to have the ecu flashed back to stock, ridding my car of the Dinan stage I. Immediately I lost the increase in throttle response that had been programmed into the car with the software. Yet after driving the car more and more over that day, the throttle response came back and the power increases past 30mph were mind boggling.

there is your answer... take off the dinan software.

Nixlimited
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 11:00:27 PM
Good info Rob, I had heard that about the Dinan software and the only reason I ever considered Dinan was for the warantied 8250 redline.

Rob's Archive
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 11:04:13 PM
that is exactly why dinan can offer his warranty because he is pretty much "big brother" and watches over and ensures that you cant harm the car by adding other non-dinan parts and hence putting him at fault in case something happens and you try to blame them.

Nixlimited
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 11:05:36 PM
that is exactly why dinan can offer his warranty because he is pretty much "big brother" and watches over and ensures that you cant harm the car by adding other non-dinan parts and hence putting him at fault in case something happens and you try to blame them.

Yes, I read somewhere that Steve Dinan loves Orwell.

RagingLamb
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 12:25:15 AM
I have the answer flat and simple...as I ran into the same issue when dyno'ing my m5 after installing the AA CAI.

For no other reason we (AA's techs and myself) could not figure out why my new intake was only making 10hp max gain on the first run and got less and less on every other. At first we thought it would be the adaptations so we tried to reset those using a OBD interface...drove the car some around and then redyno'd the car...still even less power.

No ideas were able to be figured out till...we went back and looked at the adaptation values again. It was stuck at 1, and had not really adapted to the new CAI



DINANS SOFTWARE HAS ADAPTATION LOCKOUT ABILITY...HENCE THIS IS WHY YOU ARE FORCED TO BUY NEW SOFTWARE STAGES EVERYTIME YOU BUY LEVELS OF HIS PRODUCTS.

Soon after returning home, distraught as to why my 1000 dollar intake made less and less power over a full day of dyno runs, I took AA's recommendation to have the ecu flashed back to stock, ridding my car of the Dinan stage I. Immediately I lost the increase in throttle response that had been programmed into the car with the software. Yet after driving the car more and more over that day, the throttle response came back and the power increases past 30mph were mind boggling.

there is your answer... take off the dinan software.

Holy crap, how disgusting...yet, smart. I both admire and loathe the man. That bastard...genius.

NoSoup4U
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 12:54:47 PM
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311270 -- here's the thread.

These guys are pretty knowledgeable about tuning, adaptation, ECU programming, etc. Nick knows what he talks about. Closed loop and open loop, etc. He tunes both PT and WOT.

I wonder if superchips does the same thing. Wondering if we could get their rep to respond here. I would be curious to see if they tuned PT and WOT and also if closed loop is maintained at stoich throughout the band. If not, then that means there is more power to be made if someone tunes it this way.

It seems, Nick said in a pm, that most tuners leave PT maps alone and just tune WOT -- however, this is not optimal. Changing the TP, e.g., like the sport button does, is what a lot of people do -- rather than actually gaining any real tangible benefit.

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 01:57:39 PM
Powerchips does both maps...just for info to be archived.

Nixlimited
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 03:08:42 PM
Powerchips does both maps...just for info to be archived.

Yep, that's their big selling point. I am not sure if Eurobahn does or not.

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 03:10:32 PM
dont know...wheres joel? He could chime in

BMWGuy206
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 03:18:25 PM
hey guys-
I just sent an email to Superchips about this. Hopefully they can respond back before they're close for the day.

However, customers have reported much smoother and crisper throttle response in both modes.

So far I have done two E46 330Ci and one modified Cooper S with 19% reduction pully, SS Headers, no cats, borla race exhaust, and CAI. Going to upload the Superchips Cooper S file tonight.

OK Superchips did respond back and said that both the part throttle and WOT maps are altered.

NoSoup4U
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 03:59:00 PM
SWEET!!! Great information to know Jon!!!

Are you using the superchips s/w in your car? How do you like it? I am scheduled to send my ECU to Jeff sometime in the near future!

BMWGuy206
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:03:45 PM
SWEET!!! Great information to know Jon!!!

Are you using the superchips s/w in your car? How do you like it? I am scheduled to send my ECU to Jeff sometime in the near future!

James,

My M3 is at the dealer with some EML(Drive by wire) issues with the TP Sensors.

Once I get the car back I am going to dyno it (AFE CAI with AA Exhaust), do Superchips software, dyno again, then install with a full SS Exhaust setup, install another Superchips software, and dyno again.

Arent there any local Superchip Dealers in your area?

NoSoup4U
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 05:12:42 PM
Arent there any local Superchip Dealers in your area?

Yes, but I hate Curry's Auto with a passion. If my car broke down in front of their place, I would pay the $200 to have it towed somewhere else.

torresmd
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 06:03:25 PM
So I guess I am more confused now. This is a bit over my head. When I install my K&N CAI, does this mean that I must reset my ECU, or can I just drive the car and let the car adapt on its own?

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 06:06:40 PM
it will always adapt...thats the reason that the ECU has adaptation values. I have found that by unplugging the battery durring the install of any performance parts and hooking it back up after, helps to keep SES lights to a minimum.

Your car will adapt to the intake

Nixlimited
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 10:11:48 PM
Yes, but I hate Curry's Auto with a passion. If my car broke down in front of their place, I would pay the $200 to have it towed somewhere else.

You and me both. They totally botched my suspension install and then when I posted about it, I got an angry call from the shop manager. I was like, well, if you were as interested in fixing your mistakes as you are in protecting your reputation, you might get more of my business.

AudiOn19s
Tue, Feb-08-2005, 09:19:16 PM
X350 any updates on this, have you made it back to the dyno?

Sorry for bringing up this old thread

Need4Speed05
Wed, Feb-09-2005, 02:42:41 AM
TTT...I'm interested also!

X350
Wed, Feb-09-2005, 02:49:00 AM
Sorry for the dalay I had to take my car to the dealer to get some minor crap fixed. Im planning on Thursday or Friday to re-dyno.

Irrenarzt
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 01:28:34 PM
281rwhp STOCK??? i think that is a little off...

usually they dyno 265-275rwhp....not 281rwhp...

Check this out Grimmlet (from Evosport who has dyno'd more E46 M3's (to redline, not just 6500) than just about anyone else)

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6260936-1.html