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zipperX
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 04:49:19 PM
So I ordered the StopTech stainless brake lines for my car the other day from Zeckhausen Racing (I recommend ordering from them, Dave is nice to talk to and helpful). My question is, of you who have these or similar aftermarket brake lines, who did you have install them? I was considering having my dealer do it, but wasn't sure if this was a good idea or not. Also, will this void the warrantee on my entire brake system, or just the lines themselves?

Thanks for any help!

flybigjet
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 05:16:14 PM
Save the money and do it yourself- it's pretty much a no-brainer. Here's the information you need:

http://m3.madrussian.net/review_stoptech_lines.shtml
http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_brake_bleed.shtml
http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_front_brake_lines.shtml
http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_rear_brake_lines.shtml

As for warranty, obviously BMW won't warranty the lines, as they've been replaced by a non-oem (although DOT approved) part. Your warranty on the rest of the brake system (and the rest of the car, for that matter) can only be denied if BMW can prove that the replacement part directly caused the failure of another part (e.g. the aftermarket air intake you installed allowed a cat to be sucked into the combustion chamber). Which it won't. Brake lines aren't exactly the pinnicle of high technology, and they don't exactly have many moving parts that can brake, er break. R.

torresmd
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:17:52 PM
My service tech a the dealer recommended SS breaklines to me as the only upgrade to my breaks. He didn't say anything about the warranty, but I assume he wouldn't recommend it if it altered the warranty.

cbformula
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:29:56 PM
for anyone who have stainless steel brake lines... what advantages do you get and feel from them?

Will Pwr
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:33:29 PM
Pedal pressure feels a bit more solid and consistent. Response will slightly improve as well, especially in heavy braking situations.

03m3brad
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:34:58 PM
Flybigjet you're right. I took my '01 M3 to the stealer and they denied a "routine maintance" on the brake system for having both SS lines and ATE brake fluid. They had me in the middle of negotiating on a new '03 M3 at the time. The sales manager was adjusting the value of my trade-in by $2K for the full brake job.

With a lot of pushing, the stealer gave in on the brakes, but since it took them 10 days to agree to the brake job on warranty, they said my car had depreciated $2K in the process. I'd bought three M3's from them prior to this incident and yes . . .I walked!

My advise, talk to your stealer and confirm they're cool with it, unless the brake warranty doesn't mean much to you?

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:35:59 PM
Pedal pressure feels a bit more solid and consistent. Response will slightly improve as well, especially in heavy braking situations.

exactly! :thumbsup:

03m3brad
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:38:22 PM
Pedal pressure feels a bit more solid and consistent. Response will slightly improve as well, especially in heavy braking situations.

They're critical for track use. Very cheap, easy to install upgrade and after you get them installed you can do a nice flush with some good high temp fluid.

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:41:07 PM
I don't see how they can void the warrenty:

these items are covered under the ? warrenty act and are functional approved equivalents, DOT approved, in fact the oem fluid is ATE!

I'd demand a written statement why my warranty was voided, including a technical explanation of the damage caused(they is required by law if they deny coverage)...I'll need it for my lawsuit...:D

03m3brad
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:47:20 PM
I don't see how they can void the warrenty:

these items are covered under the ? warrenty act and are functional approved equivalents, DOT approved, in fact the oem fluid is ATE!

I'd demand a written statement why my warranty was voided, including a technical explanation of the damage caused(they is required by law if they deny coverage)...I'll need it for my lawsuit...:D

Art, put yourself in my shoes. I just went home, put the OEM lines back on flushed the ATE blue fluid out and put in OEM fluid. The next day, I went to another stealer and they covered the full brake warranty, so I proceeded to cut a deal with them on a trade for the '03 + they even gave me a better deal.

The sales manager at the original stealer said that BMW could tell by looking at the pads & rotors that SS lines and aftermarket fluid was used :rofl2: !!

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:53:07 PM
Art, put yourself in my shoes. I just went home, put the OEM lines back on flushed the ATE blue fluid out and put in OEM fluid. The next day, I went to another stealer and they covered the full brake warranty, so I proceeded to cut a deal with them on a trade for the '03 + they even gave me a better deal.

The sales manager at the original stealer said that BMW could tell by looking at the pads & rotors that SS lines and aftermarket fluid was used :rofl2: !!

these guys must think we're idiots....

please mister dealer how can you tell? from the rotor wear? pad wear? magic?

I'm surprised they're not trying to void the warranty for not using oem Conti or Michelin tires! :nixweiss:

03m3brad
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 07:55:43 PM
I've probably steered at least a dozen people away from that stealer.

zipperX
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 10:00:07 PM
Save the money and do it yourself- it's pretty much a no-brainer. Here's the information you need:

http://m3.madrussian.net/review_stoptech_lines.shtml
http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_brake_bleed.shtml
http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_front_brake_lines.shtml
http://m3.madrussian.net/diy_rear_brake_lines.shtml

As for warranty, obviously BMW won't warranty the lines, as they've been replaced by a non-oem (although DOT approved) part. Your warranty on the rest of the brake system (and the rest of the car, for that matter) can only be denied if BMW can prove that the replacement part directly caused the failure of another part (e.g. the aftermarket air intake you installed allowed a cat to be sucked into the combustion chamber). Which it won't. Brake lines aren't exactly the pinnicle of high technology, and they don't exactly have many moving parts that can brake, er break. R.

Cool, thanks for the feedback. I had looked on this website for DIY before but thought since I was having my fluid flushed for a track event, I might have them throw them in. Install isn't my major concern, it is the DIY bleeding of the brakes right before a track event that concerned me.

As far as the warrantee goes, I don't really care all the much. I plan on putting Axxis Ultimates and Euro rotors on anyway, which nulls it. Some stealers can just be real a$$ h0les when it comes to that stuff. Any one else do it themselves without much problem w/install and bleeding? Anything I should worry about, or just pay close attention to m3.madrussian wrote?

Need4Spd
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 10:55:03 PM
The sales manager at the original stealer said that BMW could tell by looking at the pads & rotors that SS lines and aftermarket fluid was used It truly amazes me when I hear things like this. What could that sales manager possibly have been thinking? That we're too dumb to figure out this is BS? This is no $15k econobox! It's an M3! Even if "regular" BMW owners might not know that much about cars, would he really believe that an enthusiast with the financial means to afford an M3 would be so gullible? Or is this just another instance of "I don't know WTF I'm talking about but this BS sure sounds good?"

Anyway, SS lines are a good way to improve brake feel and take out any "delay" caused by the rubber lines having to expand before fluid pressure goes to the brake pistons. You just need to be aware that they are not as maintenance free as OEM lines. You should check them at every oil change to make sure they're not chafing on anything or showing signs of degradation or leakage.

They are an easy if messy DIY job. Just be sure not to let the fluid level drop so much you expose the master reservoir to air or get any air into the ABS. You will have to bleed the brakes no matter what, but if you confine air entry to the lines it'll be a lot easier.

flybigjet
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 11:07:10 PM
Anything I should worry about, or just pay close attention to m3.madrussian wrote?

When I did it, I did pads (Porterfied R4-S), euro rotors, StopTech lines, and ATE Gold all at once; if you're going to go through the effort, you might as well attempt to minimize the amount of messiness by doing it all at once. MadRussian has great diy's for both the euro rotor and pad install.

The Mad Russian's diy's are utterly, completely, and absolutely golden; a couple things I found helpful though: First, invest in a pressurized brake bleeder- it's worth the $40-50 bucks and makes doing a full fluid replacement a *lot* easier (especially if you intend to change fluid occasionally after DE's). Second, when you bleed out the clutch, be sure you open/close the valve *while* the clutch pedal is being depressed (obviously a two person job). Also, since you're down there, it would be a great time to remove the CDV as well (Zeckenhausen actually sells a CDV blank, which is what I used, just in case some tech ever looks at the transmission housing). Next, give yourself the time to do it right- don't try to do this two hours before you have to blast to a DE; the day before might be more appropriate; I've gotten so that I can do a complete pad change in about seven minutes per wheel (including wheel on/off- I *love* my air compressor), but it's an acquired skill. Finally, you'll want a 7mm allen head socket to take the brakes apart. I can almost guarantee you won't have one- it's a weirdo size, so get this *before* you tear your car apart. You can get one at Pep Boy's or the like for about $5-7. You'll also want a descent torque wrench to do the job properly.

Good luck. Seriously, if your mechanical ability allows you to figure out which end of a screwdriver is the pointy part, you can do this- it's hardly rocket science. Also, remember to bed the pads/rotors before use. Zeckenhausen has instructions on their website for the pads they carry, but bedding instructions can vary by manufacturer.

Hope the information helps. R.

DZeckhausen
Sun, Jan-30-2005, 04:33:31 PM
Flybigjet you're right. I took my '01 M3 to the stealer and they denied a "routine maintance" on the brake system for having both SS lines and ATE brake fluid. ...snip...

My advise, talk to your stealer and confirm they're cool with it, unless the brake warranty doesn't mean much to you?A couple of words of advice to help you deal with BMW service centers who are jerks about simple modifications.

ATE Super Blue Racing brake fluid is exactly the same stuff as ATE TYP 200 brake fluid with the exception of the added blue dye. If you're going to use ATE fluid and you are going to continue going to the dealer for routine service, I suggest using amber TYP 200 fluid instead of Super Blue Racing. That way, your dealer won't be able to tell you've changed the fluid.

Technically, Super Blue Racing fluid is not DOT 4. If you read the side of the can, it says, "Better than specifications of FMVSS No.116 DOT4/DOT3 (differing blue coloration)..." Translated to English, that means this fluid fails to meet the specifications of DOT 4 because those specifications include a requirement that the fluid be "clear to amber" in color. The side of the ATE TYP 200 fluid reads, "This DOT 4 motor vehicle brake fluid conforms to the US safety standard FMVSS 571.116/DOT 4/DOT 3, SAE-specification J1703 (supersedes 70 R1 and 70 R3) and ISO 4925." The BMW dealer can try to deny you warranty coverage if you use a non-approved fluid like Super Blue Racing. If you use the identical performing ATE TYP 200, then you're in the clear. (no pun intended!)

There's nothing about stainless steel braided brake lines that should affect the life span of your pads and rotors. I would challenge the dealer on this. On the other hand, they may try to use these "performance modifications" as evidence that you have engaged in motorsports activity and use that as the basis for free maintenance and/or warranty coverage denial. If you haven't participated in any such activity, then it's up to the dealer to try to prove you have. Denial of warranty on suspicion without evidence is illegal.

Porshapwr
Tue, May-24-2005, 01:29:06 AM
A couple of words of advice to help you deal with BMW service centers who are jerks about simple modifications.

ATE Super Blue Racing brake fluid is exactly the same stuff as ATE TYP 200 brake fluid with the exception of the added blue dye. If you're going to use ATE fluid and you are going to continue going to the dealer for routine service, I suggest using amber TYP 200 fluid instead of Super Blue Racing. That way, your dealer won't be able to tell you've changed the fluid.

Technically, Super Blue Racing fluid is not DOT 4. If you read the side of the can, it says, "Better than specifications of FMVSS No.116 DOT4/DOT3 (differing blue coloration)..." Translated to English, that means this fluid fails to meet the specifications of DOT 4 because those specifications include a requirement that the fluid be "clear to amber" in color. The side of the ATE TYP 200 fluid reads, "This DOT 4 motor vehicle brake fluid conforms to the US safety standard FMVSS 571.116/DOT 4/DOT 3, SAE-specification J1703 (supersedes 70 R1 and 70 R3) and ISO 4925." The BMW dealer can try to deny you warranty coverage if you use a non-approved fluid like Super Blue Racing. If you use the identical performing ATE TYP 200, then you're in the clear. (no pun intended!)

There's nothing about stainless steel braided brake lines that should affect the life span of your pads and rotors. I would challenge the dealer on this. On the other hand, they may try to use these "performance modifications" as evidence that you have engaged in motorsports activity and use that as the basis for free maintenance and/or warranty coverage denial. If you haven't participated in any such activity, then it's up to the dealer to try to prove you have. Denial of warranty on suspicion without evidence is illegal.



Nice post and informative. Thanks!