I'm trying to think of what vehicles might be in the lineup for competition against the E90. I'm sure the S4 will still be a big contendor since it has the V8 400hp engine. I was also thinking the CLK 65 should also be in the line up. How about the Pontiac GTO? :nixweiss:

Is the S4 getting a power increase? because right now it's at 344hp...

I believe the new S4 will have a 400+ bhp engine. Something along the lines of 415 or 425

I believe the new S4 will have a 400+ bhp engine. Something along the lines of 415 or 425


Think you mean the B7 RS4, that one is coming soon and will have around 420hp... and have a sedan version instead of just avant (station wagon) version like last time.

The new S4 will have plenty of grunt. The GTO will definately be a contendor.

Agreed, dont think they would upgrade the S4 by that much including the S6, now the boys across the road at RS............. well thats another story completely.
Adam.

They will put it up against the same cars they have in the past: porsches, corvettes, AMG's, and the S4.

They will put it up against the same cars they have in the past: porsches, corvettes, AMG's, and the S4.

That's true. I bet the new Porsche 997 Turbo, will be competitor, along with the C6, CLK/C55(65), and the S4.

holy mother of christ.. clk65 amg? thats going to be hoot!!

CLK 65 just sounds sick, a E65 sounds sicker...those 65 AMG engines sound like rockets taking off

holy mother of christ.. clk65 amg? thats going to be hoot!!

Well, I take that back. The CLK is still in talks - the E65 & CL65 are guaranteed to be due out within the end of this yr or beginning of next yr.

Well, I take that back. The CLK is still in talks - the E65 & CL65 are guaranteed to be due out within the end of this yr or beginning of next yr.


hey rush, check your pm...the CL65 and SL65 is out already but I haven't heard anything on the E65 yet.

No way we're competing against an anything 65. It's still not completely set in stone whether we'll have a v8 or an I6, yet it's garunteed that a merc with a 65 badge on the rear is a twin turbo V12 with enough torque that the car itself doesn't move, rather, it forces the earth underneath it to move so that the car looks like it's moving. It won't be priced to compete with us nor will it be in the same performance bracket.

Seriously boys, if you think the CLK65 sounds good, wait till you here the news regarding the all new E72 and its real.
Adam.

There's not going to be a E65 but more likely a E63 NA. Also no FI for CLK and C.

Nar digger, E72 and again, Im very serious.....
Adam.

There's not going to be a E65 but more likely a E63 NA. Also no FI for CLK and C.

Well, either way, that's definetly a big engine in a 4 door sedan. I mean 6.0 liters+ for a 4 door vehicle, is just wow...

i cant see anything competing with the 65 class. Those things are monsters. I have not heard anything about the clk65 but i would not be suprised. I cant see a m3 even close to 600hp+ stock. NO competition here.

I give up................................................ ..
Adam.

Nar digger, E72 and again, Im very serious.....
Adam.

Do you mean a E class with 7.2L is on the boards?
Or are you taking the piss out of AMG's philosphy :beer:

i think the latter

I was thinking this thread was a comp to win an e90 m3 when it comes out :chair: :chair: :chair: my bad :chair: :banghead:

Yes 7.2L is on the cards again, I'm serious and not taking the pi$$
Adam.

Do you mean a E class with 7.2L is on the boards?
Or are you taking the piss out of AMG's philosphy :beer:

i think the latter

Not a bad idea, who is going to put up the prize.
I was thinking this thread was a comp to win an e90 m3 when it comes out :chair: :chair: :chair: my bad :chair: :banghead:

Not a bad idea, who is going to put up the prize.
Well, since you were just made moderator on these boards I say you show your dedication to the members here and you subsidize the competition. :D :thumbsup:
-Dave

Well, since you were just made moderator on these boards I say you show your dedication to the members here and you subsidize the competition. :D :thumbsup:
-Dave
Hehehe i agree

We got 30k members if we all put $5 we will have around 150k.
Yup i got it all sorted out :agree: :agree:

everyone is getting huge HP...

and AMG may have tri-turbo for their ugly cars..

coz they are afraid of M Power~~~ :thumbsup:

Well I agree that the tweaked up Audis and some of the smaller Benzes are the competition the E90 M3 is against, but it is madness to compare it to the current AMG65 models... Those things cost over 3 times the M3!

I have some power figures and future plans (underlining the word "PLANS") from Audi, just to show you what the future might bring;
All future models (Except the A2) get the "S" treatment and most will also later get the louder "RS" treatment as well.

S4 for 2005 has 400BHP 4,2 litre V8

RS4 due at Geneva at March, same engine but tweaked up to 420 BHP, naturally aspirated since there is no room for turbo

S6 Engine by Lamborghini. It gets the latest version of the V10 shared with Sant´Agata, 5,2 litres but detuned for 440BHP

RS6 Due sometime in 2006, Biturbo version of the 5,2 litre V10 good for 600 BHP

S8 Due early 2006, 460 BHP

RS8 is still tentatively planned, should get the Continental GT 552 BHP engine- Once the Bentley has moved to an upgraded 650 BHP edition of the W12.

So, looks like Audi is up for no good. Luckily, they are nothing compared to BMWs in terms of road handling and driver involvement from my point of view. Sigh! Wish the new Bimmers would look nicer though... :banghead:

Sorry, made a typo even though I double checked before posting...Oh well!

The 2005 S4 has 344 BHP, not 400! :peace:

If MB is going so far, why don't they just pay a little visit to Dodge and make an SL 80 with the Viper Motor? Oh wait, the SL 600 and SL 65 are already more powerful! Haha! You guys can biotch about the purity of a naturally aspirated engine but these turbo charged monsters from MB are incredible!

If MB is going so far, why don't they just pay a little visit to Dodge and make an SL 80 with the Viper Motor? Oh wait, the SL 600 and SL 65 are already more powerful! Haha! You guys can biotch about the purity of a naturally aspirated engine but these turbo charged monsters from MB are incredible!

if FI is so great why are MB going more NA now

if FI is so great why are MB going more NA now

Simple. You cannot have a cheaper car out perform a more expensive car from a marketing stand point. If the C55 or CLK55 had the same power as the S, SL, CL, or E55s the less expensive cars would eclipse the more expensive cars in performance and probably cannibalize sales. This is why the Porsche Boxster, although more competent handling wise, doesn't get the same powered engine as a 911.

MB is not moving away from FI in their higher end vehicles. The SLR had a SC V-8, the 600 and 65 motors are turbo charged, the 55 motors are supercharged in the S, SL, CL, and E models.

I'm not saying that FI motors are better. I'm just arguing that they put out some pretty impressive performance numbers and that very few if any of the NA BMW's can touch their FI counterparts.

Regardless of what you think, it is pretty amazing that a SL600 can blow the doors off many cars that cost a lot more. I know that this is magazine racing and only straight line acceleration comparisons, but the SL 600 beats Ferrari's 360 Modena, 575 Maranello, Lamborghini's Murcielago and Gallardo, any Aston Martin, and any Porsche short of the Carerra GT. This is from a heavy-ass luxo cruiser that weighs over 4000 lbs. I'm sure any of those cars listed will dust the SL on the track due to the weight penalty but come on, the SL 600 and 65 are incredible machines. Oh yeah, and lets not forget Vipers and the new Vettes as well.

Simple. You cannot have a cheaper car out perform a more expensive car from a marketing stand point. If the C55 or CLK55 had the same power as the S, SL, CL, or E55s the less expensive cars would eclipse the more expensive cars in performance and probably cannibalize sales. This is why the Porsche Boxster, although more competent handling wise, doesn't get the same powered engine as a 911.

MB is not moving away from FI in their higher end vehicles. The SLR had a SC V-8, the 600 and 65 motors are turbo charged, the 55 motors are supercharged in the S, SL, CL, and E models.

I'm not saying that FI motors are better. I'm just arguing that they put out some pretty impressive performance numbers and that very few if any of the NA BMW's can touch their FI counterparts.

Regardless of what you think, it is pretty amazing that a SL600 can blow the doors off many cars that cost a lot more. I know that this is magazine racing and only straight line acceleration comparisons, but the SL 600 beats Ferrari's 360 Modena, 575 Maranello, Lamborghini's Murcielago and Gallardo, any Aston Martin, and any Porsche short of the Carerra GT. This is from a heavy-ass luxo cruiser that weighs over 4000 lbs. I'm sure any of those cars listed will dust the SL on the track due to the weight penalty but come on, the SL 600 and 65 are incredible machines. Oh yeah, and lets not forget Vipers and the new Vettes as well.

The word is that the sc55's are being replaced by a NA 6.3L or bigger. I think its a emmisions thing driving this. You really think its amazing that a 6L tt can out perform a NA 3.6 (360) 2 ton or not? they are fast but are far from amazing IMO atleast.

btw, i reckon a Murc has the edge over the tt's and i'd like to be in a position to find out though:thumbsup:

cheers

The word is that the sc55's are being replaced by a NA 6.3L or bigger. I think its a emmisions thing driving this. You really think its amazing that a 6L tt can out perform a NA 3.6 (360) 2 ton or not? they are fast but are far from amazing IMO atleast.

btw, i reckon a Murc has the edge over the tt's and i'd like to be in a position to find out though:thumbsup:

cheers

The S65 is coming out soon. It was displayed at the Chicago Auto Show. It has 604 HP and 738 Torque. This is from a twin turbo V12 with 6 liters of displacement. The claimed 0-60 time is 4.2 seconds although I'd bet that it is under 4 seconds. Slap some drag radials strip the extra weight on that and you might even see mid 3's.

The fact that this is a luxo cruiser that has super performance is incredible. I'm sure you can set the car for a cushy ride with its air suspension or set it extra firm for spirited driving. I don't see how BMW is going to put out a car to compete against something like this using a naturally aspirated engine.

I'd be concerned about the reliability of a super high revving engine and dropping in a huge displacement NA engine doesn't seem very appealing. Face it, forced induction technology is here to stay. Turbos have turbo lag and superchargers whine and require power from the engine but their net effect is more power.

don't forget the new Infinity Skyline GT-R out in 07. around the same price range as the new M3. rumor has it that it will be powered by a 3.2 TT, 450+ horsepower, AWD. they're supposedly going directly at the 911 TT, performance wise.
i'm loving all the options that will be out in the next few years. if BMW screws around, and the M3 looks like crap, there will be some real competition.

Think you mean the B7 RS4, that one is coming soon and will have around 420hp... and have a sedan version instead of just avant (station wagon) version like last time.

In addition it will be NA, not bi-turbo.

Uhh the E600 has been out for a few years now, its a custom order car that is not built until it is bought and pd by the client. There is 2 around me that I see alot. I know Jerry Seinfeld has one as well. They look stock btw except for the badge. I thought it was a bs badge for a long time till I happened to run into one at a golf club and asked the guy about it, he popped the hood and yup its real :bow: He knows the other guy (both are older guys in their mid 70's) and both cars were delivered by Manhatten MB.

So, looks like Audi is up for no good. Luckily, they are nothing compared to BMWs in terms of road handling and driver involvement from my point of view.

I wouldn't say that with too much confidence... There are always bigger and better things out there. But yes for the price and the refinement there aren't MUCH competition to the E46 M3

Here is the Competition as I see it.

On the low end you'll have the GTO, EVO and STi. The GTO get's 400hp this year, but won't be a huge threat (stock) until the 2nd generation car comes out in 2007 (with 400hp...and 400hp in weight savings over the current platform)

In the $45-$50K range The S4 will soldier on with 344hp, the CTS-V may either get a 400hp LS2 or there is a strong change it will go up in price and recieve the 500hp LS7. also the "regular" C6 will likely continue unchanged for a few years.

In the $50K-$60K range, we have the C55 which will no doubt grow to become the Naturally Aspirated 400hp+ C63 AMG.

In the $60-$70K range I think we'll see the new e90-based M3 at 400hp as well as the Audi RS4 with 420hp and less weight than an S4. Aditionally Nissan will enter the mix with the Skyline GT-R with AWD and a 450hp V6 with Electronic assist turbos. The final car in this range will be the Jag S-TypeR which will go largely unchanged but then again it (and I think the CTS-V as well) are going for a slightly different market than the M3.

Above that we get into the new 500hp Z06, Porsche 911s, Revised 400hp Jaguar XK and the like.

All and all a good time to be alive. FWIW though I'm basing all the above on my own observations from information I've compiled here:
http://forums.streetfire.net/forumdisplay.php?f=2

And Spy Shots
http://forums.streetfire.net/forumdisplay.php?f=1

I wouldn't say that with too much confidence... There are always bigger and better things out there. But yes for the price and the refinement there aren't MUCH competition to the E46 M3


No confidence here, I was simply refering to BMWs and Audis with this...
And what comes for "there are always bigger and better things out there" I couldn´t agree more, since these two are just a drop in the ocean (who would honestly compare a BMW and a Lamborghini for example). But since I consider Audi and Merc to be BMWs main competitors I wanted to point out that BMW might be on a lag in terms of power. And further on, power in itself does not better overall experience, and having driven both the Audi a8 6,0 and S4 I would still prefer the BMW 745 (not talking about looks now :nixweiss: ) and absolutely the M3 over an Audi!!!

have no experience over Mercs, so between Audi and BMW I´ll go for the latter, any day...

:peace:

the porsche seems to be a very high price point to compare with the new M3---what about the Dodge Magnum SRT-8. that wagon looks dope!

The word is that the sc55's are being replaced by a NA 6.3L or bigger. I think its a emmisions thing driving this. You really think its amazing that a 6L tt can out perform a NA 3.6 (360) 2 ton or not? they are fast but are far from amazing IMO atleast.

btw, i reckon a Murc has the edge over the tt's and i'd like to be in a position to find out though:thumbsup:

cheers


Mercedes Benz is indeed dropping the supercharged 5439cc V8's in favor of naturally aspirated 6.3 liter 32 valve V8, partly for emmisions as Digger has mentioned, but also because of the aforementioned blower whine, and to provide the better throttle response that a large displacement V8 brings...

A few other MB points here...

As far as the CLK65 is concerned, I've heard conflicting stories about whether or not it will be produced, but what I do know is that despite the "65" designation, it wil not have the 6 liter TT V12 that the other 65 series cars have. Now before you try to correct me about the 65's being a 6 liter, understand that the "600" V12s are actually 5.5 liter V12's and the "65" is a 6 liter. They chose the "600" designation so there wouldn't be any confusion with the 5439cc V8.

If the CLK "65" is produced afterall, it wil most likely have a supercharged 5439cc V8, similar to the other V8 kompressor range, but not as powerful as the CLK DTMs. I understand that the AMG series CLK will also get the 6.3 liter engine in the future...

The AMG 65 series are seriously fast, but at better than $180k, it's hardly an M3 competeitor. For that much cake, it had better be damned fast!! This months "Automobile" Magazine has an arcticle where the author took an SL65 to an Orlando drag strip. Apparantely this guy had never been to the dragstrip, couldn't perform a burnout in the box (The electronics won't allow power braking), had the A/C on, and didn't even check the tire pressures... So his virgin run in the 1/4 mile? How about an 11.85 @ 118 mph? From a guy who's never been to the dragstrip! The car launched hard enough to activate the automatic roll-over hops! Supposedly he had a 2.2 second 60 foot time, and that an 11.5 second run is possible with a liitle bit of practice...

The amazing thing is that most of the big MB tuners like Brabus, Renntech, and Kleeman are getting even more horsepower and torque from these monsters! Kleemans "Stage I" tuning has the 65 series V12 producing no less than 739 horsepower and 959lb/ft** of torque!! :bow: :bow: :bow:

Two tons or not, that will be unGodly fast. Even the "standard" 65 series V12 engined cars are surely faster than their acceleration times might suggest. With THAT much torque and "only" 285mm wide rear tires, traction is far and away the biggest limitation. I'd like to know that their 65mph to 155mph times are like. I'd venture a guess that it might only take slightly longer than it took you to read this paragraph, depending upon your reading comprehension...


Anyway, like I've said before, none of the "AMG specials", i.e., the 65 series cars, can be considered as competetion, and I'm sure that the E90 M3 will do very well against all of the comers, be it the RS4, CLK63, CTS/STS-V series, Pontiac GTO, etc, etc...

Aside from that, regardless of which car turns out to be the fastest of the bunch, they are ALL more than fast enough for a street driven vehicle, and there are other factors to consider. Refinement, heritage, build quality, styling, and so on and so on. It's like a post I read a long time ago where some Fast & the Furious reject was "educating" me, about how a turbocharged, nitrous huffing Honda Civic can have more horsepower than as a 911 GT2, and how he somehow thought that just because the Civic would have a better power to weight ratio, it would be the "better" of the two cars... :chair:

I suspect that like every M3, the E90 will be even faster and better on the road than they are on paper...


Best regards,
Matt


** They're putting out 1300 NM, which I believe is equivelant to 959 lb/ft. Does anyone recall the conversion rates for newton meters and foot pounds?