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View Full Version : ZCP wheels. Forged or Spun Cast? Here's what BMWNA said.


Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 12:58:31 AM
Alright so I finally got a response back from BMWNA about the ZCP wheels.

Here's my e-mail to them:

To whom it may concern,

I had a question on the new ZCP package for the '05 BMW M3. The
bmwusa.com website currently states that the new wheels, that are part of
the ZCP package, are "M Cross Spoke forged lightweight alloy wheels." The
main part of the quote is that the wheels are "forged." All BMW
publications, to date, have stated that the wheels are "forged," but in
reality the wheels are said to be spun cast.

I'm wondering if you could clarify what type of wheels are actually on the
US spec M3 with the ZCP package.


Thanks!




Here's their response:

Dear Mr. Galakanokis:

Thank you for contacting BMW of North America, LLC regarding your interest in the BMW M3. As stated on our web page, the wheels are M Cross Spoke forged lightweight alloy wheels.

If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117, Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time. Again, thank you for contacting BMW.




So it looks like according to BMW NA the wheels are Forged. I would urge all BMW owners to send the same e-mail I did to BMW NA to see if we get any varying responses.

Divexxtreme
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:05:32 AM
My buddy checked again today...and sure enough, the rear ZCP wheels are exactly the same part number as the CSL's...which are spun cast. I wonder what BMWNA will say when that information is presented to them?

It sounds like the person that responded to you didn't bother looking into it. They just reponded with the quickest answer they could provide. :banghead:

Rob's Archive
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:10:54 AM
BMW is F'n up everything

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:12:42 AM
My buddy checked again today...and sure enough, the rear ZCP wheels are exactly the same part number as the CSL's...which are spun cast. I wonder what BMWNA will say whe that information is presented to them?

I think the person that responded to you didn't bother looking into it. They just reponded with the quickest answer they could provide.
Alright this is what I'm going to do - I'll send a reply e-mail with this part #36112282660 (This is the CSL rear wheel correct?)

Let me know. I'll put that part # in there and tell them that the ZCP and CSL wheel are the exact same part #, however the CSL wheel is spun cast. (I'm thinking they might not know the difference between the 2)

e36M3r
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:15:19 AM
That email from NA does not seem to be real authoritative. Sort of like when they insisted they were CSL wheels, 8.5 fronts only to change it later to 8" fronts. Pretty soon they will be taking out the "forged" word also.

Divexxtreme
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:17:59 AM
Yep, you're right Pete...that's the rear #:

CSL wheels part numbers-

Front - 36112282650
Rear - 36112282660

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:29:24 AM
Alright - reply e-mail sent:

Anthony,

Thank you for the prompt response.


I'm wondering if you could explain why the part # on the European CSL model
M3 and the US spec ZCP M3 rear wheels are the same (part #36112282660. [the
front wheel part #s are different because the ZCP wheel is 8 inches in width
and the CSL wheels are 8.5 inches]).

The CSL wheels are 'spun cast,' but since the two wheels share the same part
# it'd be impossible for BMW to keep track of which orders should be 'spun
cast' and which 'forged.' There seems to be some misunderstanding or
miscommunication between BMW Germany and BMW North American with regards to
the technique in which the new ZCP wheels are manufactured.


Would you be able to do some digging and get a 100% definitive answer to
this dilemma? I'd greatly appreciate that.



Thanks!


-Pete

Hyolee
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:37:48 AM
hooray for everything

ArtM3
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:38:03 AM
Alright - reply e-mail sent:

Anthony,

Thank you for the prompt response.
I'm wondering if you could explain why the part # on the European CSL model
M3 and the US spec ZCP M3 rear wheels are the same (part #36112282660. [the
front wheel part #s are different because the ZCP wheel is 8 inches in width
and the CSL wheels are 8.5 inches]).

The CSL wheels are 'spun cast,' but since the two wheels share the same part
# it'd be impossible for BMW to keep track of which orders should be 'spun
cast' and which 'forged.' There seems to be some misunderstanding or
miscommunication between BMW Germany and BMW North American with regards to
the technique in which the new ZCP wheels are manufactured.

Would you be able to do some digging and get a 100% definitive answer to
this dilemma? I'd greatly appreciate that.
Thanks!
-Pete

they're gonna love you! LOL

Divexxtreme
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:40:12 AM
That's exactly what I was thinking.:rofl2:


they're gonna love you! LOL

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:40:56 AM
I'm very determined as a person. There's plenty of people that love me :D

e36M3r
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:43:30 AM
Now that was a good sounding email... we should see the "forged" removed on the car configurator any day now! :agree:

I'm very determined as a person. There's plenty of people that love me :D

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:51:03 AM
Now that was a good sounding email... we should see the "forged" removed on the car configurator any day now! :agree:
So wait, you mean to tell me that we had this HUGE argument for nothing!!!! http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=51070 http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/rant2.gif

Divexxtreme
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 02:01:55 AM
LOL..well, it wasn't for "nothing". It did provide a decent source of entertainment for a short while.:D

e36M3r
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 02:03:12 AM
I've always maintained that they are not forged but cast. Though the spin casting is nearly as good as forged and far better than traditional cast.

EDIT: How's that.

So wait, you mean to tell me that we had this HUGE argument for nothing!!!! http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=51070 http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/rant2.gif

Divexxtreme
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 02:06:06 AM
Oh come on now...why do you want go and dredge up old debates?:D

ZGMF20A SF
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 03:08:44 AM
In reality, those representative in the customer relationship department doesn't know much about all the BMW products.

Will ZCPM3
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 03:09:07 AM
bmwna is worthless. its like when their website said the front wheels where 8.5 inches wide, so i emailed them and was told their website was correct.... well we know now they are full of shyte. i should do something saying the only reason i ordered the car was b/c of that .5 inch difference. and demand a refund or something for the package.

Beowoulf
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 04:08:51 AM
they're gonna love you! LOL
They are going to repossess his car for being a pain in the ass. :rofl2:

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 04:15:02 AM
They are going to repossess his car for being a pain in the ass. :rofl2:
http://www.orderofronin.com/forums/images/smilies/banned.gif








:D

Beowoulf
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 04:20:13 AM
That's right, they will take your car and give it to Mliner. ;)

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 04:41:35 AM
That's right, they will take your car and give it to Mliner. ;)
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! I'd rather do life :chair:

Army Chief
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 07:44:19 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but BMWNA isn't really what I would call a "definitive" source for reliable information. Inquiries such as these are typically answered by someone in marketing or Public Relations, and these folks are a long, long way from Munich. In effect, they often end up repeating the contents of press releases and such, which is usually little help to a group such as this one.

You can often get better results from searching for technical information in German (i.e. from sending your question to www.bmw.de or asking "insider connections" in Munich), but you'll likely need some basic (German) language skills to make sense of anything they might care to provide.

Either way, BMWNA is a great bunch of people, but they don't design or build the cars there, and they are basically in the business of selling a product. Since most people don't go to the lengths that we do to arm ourselves with the facts, BMWNA can field 95% of the questions they receive by simply picking up a press release or a product catalog. When a more in-depth query comes their way that requires some knowledge of engineering, design specifications, or some other non-standard subject area, they have been known to fall a bit short. I suspect this is one of those cases.

I've actually seen different part numbers for ZCP and CSL wheels sets (to include the rears), but the fact remains that these components are made by BBS under contract, and we know from BBS that spin casting is the method of manufacture. I doubt that information made it too far out of Munich once the BMW part numbers were assigned, and I think it is a bit optimistic to expect anyone outside of Bavaria to be able to provide a truly reliable answer in this case. Remember, our friends at BMWNA didn't even have the size of these wheels (fronts) right until we starting asking some very pointed questions with some evidentiary backing. That ought to tell us something, no?

Chief

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 01:40:24 PM
I've actually seen different part numbers for ZCP and CSL wheels sets (to include the rears), but the fact remains that these components are made by BBS under contract, and we know from BBS that spin casting is the method of manufacture. I doubt that information made it too far out of Munich once the BMW part numbers were assigned, and I think it is a bit optimistic to expect anyone outside of Bavaria to be able to provide a truly reliable answer in this case. Remember, our friends at BMWNA didn't even have the size of these wheels (fronts) right until we starting asking some very pointed questions with some evidentiary backing. That ought to tell us something, no?

Chief
I agree that BMWNA doesn't know much but it's still good to get their respones on paper.

Where did you see that the ZCP and CSL rear wheels had a different part #? And it sounds like we should also put a call in to BBS to see what they say. Although they're famous for doing spun cast style wheels, it's possible that they re-engineered their efforts to also include forged wheels. With a deal like BMW's sitting on the table I'm sure they would have little problems agreeing to such a request.

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 02:15:52 PM
So I got a little update e-mail from the CS Rep:

Dear Mr. Galakinokis:

Thak you for your response. Currently, I am researching your inquiry and will be contacting you shortly with further information. I appreciate your patience in the interim.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative

نسيم هودج
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 06:01:10 PM
Pete,

Is this the same guy you talked to first? That should have been his first response! At least you can respect that. He must be new? They'll have him rattling off bad info sooner or later.

Naseem

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 06:10:02 PM
Pete,

Is this the same guy you talked to first? That should have been his first response! At least you can respect that. He must be new? They'll have him rattling off bad info sooner or later.

Naseem
haha yep, it's the same guy. I guess he just went off whatever is coded on teh website as his original answer. I'm going to check my mail now to see if he sent anything.

Beowoulf
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 08:44:52 PM
So I got a little update e-mail from the CS Rep:

Dear Mr. Galakinokis:

Thak you for your response. Currently, I am researching your inquiry and will be contacting you shortly with further information. I appreciate your patience in the interim.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative

This is just a stall tactic till they can get your car back.

ArtM3
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 09:00:31 PM
This is just a stall tactic till they can get your car back.

they're gonna ask you to bring it in to check the wheel part numbers, etc.





















and they are going to keep it... :wave:

Idz21
Wed, Jan-26-2005, 09:12:58 PM
they're gonna ask you to bring it in to check the wheel part numbers, etc.





















and they are going to keep it... :wave:
hahahahaha :rofl2: :rofl2:


:thumbsup:

Daver
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 05:44:33 AM
Pete,

Is this the same guy you talked to first? That should have been his first response! At least you can respect that. He must be new? They'll have him rattling off bad info sooner or later.

Naseem

Yeah, no kidding. I wish BMW NA would smarten up and start giving answers like these more often. "I don't know" or "I don't know, I'll find out" is better than just spreading bad information.

-Daver

riuster
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 05:49:47 AM
Looks like spun cast to me, because its FORGED like strength, LIKE, not forged..also....BMW wheels all come in silver and it is VERY expensive to paint FORGED alloys, why paint forged alloys?...also another thing, my coworker is reviewing a company that makes wheels for BMW, Acura, Lexus, Dodge, and others I forget the name of the company, and they make large spun cast wheel production based on OEM specs, so BMW NA are really telling you the EXACT facts.

Sirius
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 07:26:30 AM
Send them a link to this thread. :D

BTW. Mine are forged, yours are not. Neener Neener Neener. :tongue:

Army Chief
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 09:23:16 AM
Here's the latest on the elusive part number issue. FWIW, I do consider this information reliable (yeah, I got RS2 involved again). :)


BMW M3 CSL:

36 11 2 282 650 M127 cross spoke wheel 8 1/2 J x 19 ET44
36 11 2 282 660 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27 E
36 11 2 282 999 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27

E = Can no longer be delivered by the factory (discontinued)

BMW M3 ZCP:

36 11 2 282 895 M127 cross spoke wheel 8 J x 19 ET47
36 11 2 282 999 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27

What this tells us (pretty clearly, for once), is that the original CSL wheel PN for the rears has been superceded by the same part number that the ZCP rears use. Thus, the rears ARE identical after all. This pretty much confirms the spin casting theory past any reasonable doubts. Not that it matters, because spin castings are extremely strong -- but it now seems clear that they are not true forgings, as we've been officially led to believe.

Chief

نسيم هودج
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 09:43:10 AM
Good work Chief. I wonder why "E" can no longer be ordered.

Naseem

Idz21
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 01:34:51 PM
Here's the latest on the elusive part number issue. FWIW, I do consider this information reliable (yeah, I got RS2 involved again). :)


BMW M3 CSL:

36 11 2 282 650 M127 cross spoke wheel 8 1/2 J x 19 ET44
36 11 2 282 660 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27 E
36 11 2 282 999 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27

E = Can no longer be delivered by the factory (discontinued)

BMW M3 ZCP:

36 11 2 282 895 M127 cross spoke wheel 8 J x 19 ET47
36 11 2 282 999 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27

What this tells us (pretty clearly, for once), is that the original CSL wheel PN for the rears has been superceded by the same part number that the ZCP rears use. Thus, the rears ARE identical after all. This pretty much confirms the spin casting theory past any reasonable doubts. Not that it matters, because spin castings are extremely strong -- but it now seems clear that they are not true forgings, as we've been officially led to believe.

Chief
Do you think that it's possible that the 'new' CSL/ZCP wheels are both forged? Of course, this would hold more water had the original CSL front wheel also changed part #s, which in this case it does not seem that it did.

We're definitely on to something with the wheel part #s but are we 100% certain that the current CSL rims are still spun cast?

M3Tech
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 02:15:33 PM
Do you think that it's possible that the 'new' CSL/ZCP wheels are both forged? Of course, this would hold more water had the original CSL front wheel also changed part #s, which in this case it does not seem that it did.

We're definitely on to something with the wheel part #s but are we 100% certain that the current CSL rims are still spun cast?

... I thought that the CSL production stopped in 12/03, if so this would make any individual CSL wheel replacement for current owners incompatible with the rest of their existing wheels. :nixweiss:

Idz21
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 02:31:30 PM
... I thought that the CSL production stopped in 12/03, if so this would make any individual CSL wheel replacement for current owners incompatible with the rest of their existing wheels. :nixweiss:
You're right that the CSL is no longer produced, but they still need to produce parts for it because things do break after all.

Also, the wheel will have the same dimentions whether the wheel is spun cast or forged. However, you're right that it might be incompatible because of the sligh weight difference between a forged and a spun cast wheel. So maybe the CSL wheel is still spun cast, even after the part # change.

Idz21
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 02:44:11 PM
Alright so I got an e-mail back from the rep this morning. Here's what he said:

Dear Mr. Galakinokis:

Thank you for your patience while I researched this issue further. The US rims are forged lightweight alloy wheels. The part number you provided (36112282660) is for the European CSL rims, not the US competition Package rims. The US competition Package rim part number is 36112282999. I hope this helps clear things up for you.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative



So in lieu of Chief's recent comments, and very timely I might add, I came back at him with this one:

Mr. Salla,

I appreciate your diligence and timely responses to my concerns.


Although you are correct that the 36112282660 part # is for the European CSL rear wheel, that part # has been recently discontinued. Currently, as it stands, the European CSL and the US ZCP spec wheel both share part # 36112282999. So I guess we still can't be certain whether the wheels are in fact forged or spun cast.


Let me know what you can find out about this information. Again, I really appreciate your efforts. My experience with you has thus far been the best help I received from a BMW NA rep.


Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to your next response.


-Pete

M3Tech
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 02:44:43 PM
You're right that the CSL is no longer produced, but they still need to produce parts for it because things do break after all.

Also, the wheel will have the same dimentions whether the wheel is spun cast or forged. However, you're right that it might be incompatible because of the sligh weight difference between a forged and a spun cast wheel. So maybe the CSL wheel is still spun cast, even after the part # change.

That's the point that I wanted to make... I think that the only difference between the CSL and the ZCP are the front wheels width, other that that they are the same wheels, same construction; the change of CSL rear wheel part number to the current ZCP's is proof of this. I have not seen any definitive proof -no official documentation- of this 100g difference per wheel anywhere other than what some people are posting in this forum.

But then again, even official documentation is not 100% reliable or exact. :nixweiss:

M3Tech
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 02:48:48 PM
Alright so I got an e-mail back from the rep this morning. Here's what he said:

Dear Mr. Galakinokis:

Thank you for your patience while I researched this issue further. The US rims are forged lightweight alloy wheels. The part number you provided (36112282660) is for the European CSL rims, not the US competition Package rims. The US competition Package rim part number is 36112282999. I hope this helps clear things up for you.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative



So in lieu of Chief's recent comments, and very timely I might add, I came back at him with this one:

Mr. Salla,

I appreciate your diligence and timely responses to my concerns.


Although you are correct that the 36112282660 part # is for the European CSL rear wheel, that part # has been recently discontinued. Currently, as it stands, the European CSL and the US ZCP spec wheel both share part # 36112282999. So I guess we still can't be certain whether the wheels are in fact forged or spun cast.


Let me know what you can find out about this information. Again, I really appreciate your efforts. My experience with you has thus far been the best help I received from a BMW NA rep.


Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to your next response.


-Pete

I would not be surprised if some day you'll find out that in your dealership there is a special database code right beside your name in their computers and the SA has to "talk" first to his/her manager before approving any service... :D

Thrill
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 03:05:02 PM
They are not going to admit to this. Wait and see, they will find some BS way to justify what is publicized or just drag it on until it goes away.

acitydweller
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 03:48:58 PM
the person answering these emails is not qualified... this is apparent.

نسيم هودج
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 04:44:35 PM
Pete,

If you keep at it, we just might have a person we can talk to at BMW NA. He's coming around slowy but surely. Keep at it man you just might be able to save him.
Awesome!

dizzy
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 05:17:03 PM
Here's the latest on the elusive part number issue. FWIW, I do consider this information reliable (yeah, I got RS2 involved again). :)
BMW M3 CSL:
36 11 2 282 650 M127 cross spoke wheel 8 1/2 J x 19 ET44
36 11 2 282 660 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27 E
36 11 2 282 999 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27
E = Can no longer be delivered by the factory (discontinued)

BMW M3 ZCP:
36 11 2 282 895 M127 cross spoke wheel 8 J x 19 ET47
36 11 2 282 999 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27

What this tells us (pretty clearly, for once), is that the original CSL wheel PN for the rears has been superceded by the same part number that the ZCP rears use. Thus, the rears ARE identical after all. This pretty much confirms the spin casting theory past any reasonable doubts. Not that it matters, because spin castings are extremely strong -- but it now seems clear that they are not true forgings, as we've been officially led to believe.
Chief

Why would they discontinue the original rear wheels, unless something changed? Maybe just an organizational thing? Or entirely possible they changed to forged wheels, and anyone needing to replace the CSL rear wheels would now get forged... Maybe...

I think its gonna remain a mystery for a long time. All the BMW reps are just gonna read 'forged' on a spec sheet and say "well, there ya go". When pressed, that rep will ask another rep up the chain who will just read the same spec sheet...

-David

Idz21
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 05:37:49 PM
Alright got a response from the BMW NA rep. Here it is (sounds like he's getting tired of me, as I didn't get that usual "thank you for contacting us, our hours of operation are blah blah blh" :D:

Dear Mr. Galakinokis:

The CSL rims are not the same rims as the Competition Package rims and therefore would never 'share' a part number. I'm not sure where you are getting your information; however, the part number 36112282660 is still for the Euro CSL rim.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative


So Chief, what say you? The rep is saying that the CSL rim part # has not been discontinued. I'm ready to fire back another e-mail at him, but need some more ammo.

Let me know what you come up with.

e36M3r
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 06:34:59 PM
I thought you did a good job on the last email by complimenting him, but now he seems to be done with it. ?? Perhaps you should tell him there is a controversy brewing and we need some real tech answers to this question, and that the website was wrong before on the width and changed, and perhaps the forged thing is inaccurate also.

Alright got a response from the BMW NA rep. Here it is (sounds like he's getting tired of me, as I didn't get that usual "thank you for contacting us, our hours of operation are blah blah blh" :D:

Dear Mr. Galakinokis:

The CSL rims are not the same rims as the Competition Package rims and therefore would never 'share' a part number. I'm not sure where you are getting your information; however, the part number 36112282660 is still for the Euro CSL rim.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative


So Chief, what say you? The rep is saying that the CSL rim part # has not been discontinued. I'm ready to fire back another e-mail at him, but need some more ammo.

Let me know what you come up with.

e36M3r
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 06:35:43 PM
I think this is correct...

All the BMW reps are just gonna read 'forged' on a spec sheet and say "well, there ya go". When pressed, that rep will ask another rep up the chain who will just read the same spec sheet...
-David

Army Chief
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 06:49:52 PM
Data came by way of the latest ETK release here in Europe. The revised part number for the CSL rears is, as understand it, merely an administrative change. The CSL owner needing to replace a damaged wheel is still going to get an identically spec'd part to his original wheel, but it simply has a new part number. The part didn't change, only the way BMW refers to it in the system.

As we've lamented time and again, I just don't see how anyone at BMWNA is going to be able to provide a satisfactory answer, short of picking up the telephone and calling the M boys on Petuelring in Munich (in German, no less). I just don't see that happening, and frankly, I doubt that most reps within the BMWNA hierarchy even have the connections or access to make it happen. It isn't a particularly big deal, but this is why you will almost always get better, more accurate information when you stay closer to the source (i.e. European market/Germany), from whence my last update came.

There is little sense in quibbling over minutiae here, but I know where I would put my money if it came right down to it. There are plenty of other indicators here anyway, and if you really study such things as the relatively "soft" (i.e. cast, not forged) edges of the wheel itself, you will see a lot of evidence to support the initial spin casting claim. Is any of this a big deal? No ... but it would have been nice if BMWNA could have provided something other than the party line. I'm not losing any sleep over it, and I think Mr. Salla has made a Herculean effort here to be helpful ... he just appears to be working with a limited set of tools.

Chief

نسيم هودج
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 06:57:44 PM
At least now I feel like we are getting somewhere with BMW NA. This guy Salla may just get to keep his job when I take over. HAHA. He seems to be truely trying his best to get an answer.......even if it's not the right one. Hay he's working. Encore for Pete.

Naseem

M3Tech
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 07:14:52 PM
Data came by way of the latest ETK release here in Europe. The revised part number for the CSL rears is, as understand it, merely an administrative change. The CSL owner needing to replace a damaged wheel is still going to get an identically spec'd part to his original wheel, but it simply has a new part number. The part didn't change, only the way BMW refers to it in the system.

As we've lamented time and again, I just don't see how anyone at BMWNA is going to be able to provide a satisfactory answer, short of picking up the telephone and calling the M boys on Petuelring in Munich (in German, no less). I just don't see that happening, and frankly, I doubt that most reps within the BMWNA hierarchy even have the connections or access to make it happen. It isn't a particularly big deal, but this is why you will almost always get better, more accurate information when you stay closer to the source (i.e. European market/Germany), from whence my last update came.

There is little sense in quibbling over minutiae here, but I know where I would put my money if it came right down to it. There are plenty of other indicators here anyway, and if you really study such things as the relatively "soft" (i.e. cast, not forged) edges of the wheel itself, you will see a lot of evidence to support the initial spin casting claim. Is any of this a big deal? No ... but it would have been nice if BMWNA could have provided something other than the party line. I'm not losing any sleep over it, and I think Mr. Salla has made a Herculean effort here to be helpful ... he just appears to be working with a limited set of tools.

Chief

... but then what you are actually saying is that BMNA does not have access to the latest European ETK although it is supposed to be part of the overall ETK database. If Mr. Salla went to the ETK to confirm the P/N of the CSL rear wheel, which requires the European side of the ETK, and came up with the P/N 36 1 12 282 660 instead of P/N 36 1 12 282 999 nor any reference of the part superceding it -which also confirms my personal findings using the latest and greatest USA/Euro ETK (January 2005 according to Vista BMW FL) at my dealer where we could not find any cross part numbers, superceding, nothing between the CSL and the ZCP wheels- then we are back at square one in this issue... :nixweiss:

Idz21
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 07:54:41 PM
Can someone tell me what the acronym ETK stands for? I'll write up a new e-mail telling him that the source is directly from the new German release of the ETK, and that this isn't the 1st time that the bmwusa.com website has provided incorrect information, pointing out that the wheel specs on the front wheels were off, originally displaying 8.5" width.

ArtM3
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 08:06:38 PM
somebody needs to contact BBS, and get their feedback...then forward that to Mr. Salla :O

ETK~ electronic parts catalog, IRRC

someone one here can do the German better than I..LOL

Army Chief
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 08:30:09 PM
I'd just hold off for a bit. BMWNA likely isn't going to have any thing new to tell you, and I need to get clarification over here if the ETK (CD) was a primary or secondary source. There are other ways of checking on parts data in Germany, and it didn't immediately occur to me that the updates may have come out of the distribution center network or another active database. Some parts supercessions and substitutions are posted there on an interim basis before the static ETK can reflect the changes. Either way, I'm confident that future ETK releases will validate what we've discovered, even if the present edition does not (I've not checked it myself since the new information came to light, but I doubt that the January release would reflect it yet).

Chief

Idz21
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 08:50:37 PM
I'd just hold off for a bit. BMWNA likely isn't going to have any thing new to tell you, and I need to get clarification over here if the ETK (CD) was a primary or secondary source. There are other ways of checking on parts data in Germany, and it didn't immediately occur to me that the updates may have come out of the distribution center network or another active database. Some parts supercessions and substitutions are posted there on an interim basis before the static ETK can reflect the changes. Either way, I'm confident that future ETK releases will validate what we've discovered, even if the present edition does not (I've not checked it myself since the new information came to light, but I doubt that the January release would reflect it yet).

Chief
I just don't understand why BMW would change the part # for the CSL rear wheel, but not the front. Moreover, I don't understand why they would even change the part # in the 1st place, for administrative reasons or not.

Also, isn't there some sort of technical spec document on the wheel itself? There has to be. Someone has to know the truth. I'm about to contact BBS and see what they have to say.

e36M3r
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 09:07:03 PM
Keep up the effort if you can, but don't expect to much.

For instance "some technical spec document" and 'someone knowing the truth.' So far I don't think they have ever spec'd what the changes to ZCP tuned suspension are. I'd like to know that. Was it the ride-height, stiffer springs, re-valve the shocks, etc... but so far we haven't seen those type of details.

I just don't understand why BMW would change the part # for the CSL rear wheel, but not the front. Moreover, I don't understand why they would even change the part # in the 1st place, for administrative reasons or not.

Also, isn't there some sort of technical spec document on the wheel itself? There has to be. Someone has to know the truth. I'm about to contact BBS and see what they have to say.

Idz21
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 09:49:10 PM
I sent back another e-mail to the BMW NA rep, and I sent in two e-mails to BBS. One to the headquarters, and another to BBS NA.

M3Tech
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 09:49:17 PM
I'd just hold off for a bit. BMWNA likely isn't going to have any thing new to tell you, and I need to get clarification over here if the ETK (CD) was a primary or secondary source. There are other ways of checking on parts data in Germany, and it didn't immediately occur to me that the updates may have come out of the distribution center network or another active database. Some parts supercessions and substitutions are posted there on an interim basis before the static ETK can reflect the changes. Either way, I'm confident that future ETK releases will validate what we've discovered, even if the present edition does not (I've not checked it myself since the new information came to light, but I doubt that the January release would reflect it yet).

Chief

... that's sounds more like it, IMO if all this part superceding is ultimately correct.

MattMan
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 09:54:31 PM
Or entirely possible they changed to forged wheels, and anyone needing to replace the CSL rear wheels would now get forged... Maybe...

-David

This is a good point.. anyone can disprove this? Could it be possible that the Euro CSL rims are forged now?

What's in contention are 2 things.
1. BMWNA says the rims are not the same as the Euro CSL rears.
IF TRUE = explains one being forged and one being cast

2. Part numbers suggest they are the same.
a. BMW says part #s are not same.
b. IF TRUE = "forged" is an incorrect statement or CSL new rims are now "forged"

dizzy
Thu, Jan-27-2005, 11:30:30 PM
So far I don't think they have ever spec'd what the changes to ZCP tuned suspension are. I'd like to know that...

Me too... Have the exact suspension changes of the 330CI Performance pack been released, beyond "tuned"? Am I correct in understanding that the 330 Performance pack has tuned suspension (over the standard 330?)?

-David

Daver
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 04:28:07 AM
One other thing that really deserves consideration. When the Champion RG4s were being developed, there were specific features of the CSL wheel that could not be duplicated with their forging process. That's why the spokes are not rounded and the lip isn't as deep.

I don't see how/why BBS could (or would even bother) overcome these problems for the ZCP wheels.

-Daver

speeds5
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 05:00:24 AM
How about weighting these wheels. If they're made through different techniques they'll have different weights. If it's the same wheel then it should weigh the same.

Serious
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 05:17:02 AM
isnt there a way to compared the new wheels to tell if they are forged or cast?

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:06:21 AM
One other thing that really deserves consideration. When the Champion RG4s were being developed, there were specific features of the CSL wheel that could not be duplicated with their forging process. That's why the spokes are not rounded and the lip isn't as deep.

I don't see how/why BBS could (or would even bother) overcome these problems for the ZCP wheels.

-Daver
well I can tell you that my ZCP wheels have rounded edges.

Army Chief
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:35:59 AM
I just don't understand why BMW would change the part # for the CSL rear wheel, but not the front. Moreover, I don't understand why they would even change the part # in the 1st place, for administrative reasons or not.

Actually, it isn't really unusual for certain part numbers to change over time. Sometimes this reflects a slight design change; sometimes it may be indicative of a vendor change; sometimes it is done to standardize parts groupings or for more straightoforward cataloguing; and sometimes it is simply BMW's way of identiying a component made under a different contract.

There could be any number of reasons that account for this, and I suspect that in this case, because BBS is now producing the same wheel for a different contract, it made sense to reassign a new part number to the rears while they were assigning an initial one to the fronts. Can't say for sure, of course, but it isn't a huge leap in logic, especially now that the ZCP wheels are going to be a high demand production item, and the CSL wheels are only being produced as replacements for a relatively small group of qualified cars.

I'll see what I can glean on this end, but I think you might be spinning your wheels (no pun intended) by going back after BMWNA right now. Patience, patience. :)

Chief

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:46:29 AM
Actually, it isn't really unusual for certain part numbers to change over time. Sometimes this reflects a slight design change; sometimes it may be indicative of a vendor change; sometimes it is done to standardize parts groupings or for more straightoforward cataloguing; and sometimes it is simply BMW's way of identiying a component made under a different contract.

There could be any number of reasons that account for this, and I suspect that in this case, because BBS is now producing the same wheel for a different contract, it made sense to reassign a new part number to the rears while they were assigning an initial one to the fronts. Can't say for sure, of course, but it isn't a huge leap in logic, especially now that the ZCP wheels are going to be a high demand production item, and the CSL wheels are only being produced as replacements for a relatively small group of qualified cars.

I'll see what I can glean on this end, but I think you might be spinning your wheels (no pun intended) by going back after BMWNA right now. Patience, patience. :)

Chief
I just want to throw the ball in their court and let them do the dribbling. When they figure out what I'm asking, they can pass the ball back to me, and then I'll decide if I'm satisfied with the wide-open layup.

Had enough b-ball references yet?

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 02:00:54 PM
Alright guys - for those still following this thread - Here's the last e-mail I sent back to Mr. Salla at BMW NA (This is after he asked me where my info was coming from):


Mr. Salla,

Thank you for being so patient with me regarding this matter.

The information on the part #s is coming directly from the updated version of the German ETK. It's possible that this information hasn't reached all corners of the BMW market yet, which is why you might not be seeing it.

Out of curiosity, would you be able to tell me where you are looking up your information? I'm wondering if there's some sort of link between the BMW NA and BMW Germany, where correspondence can take place just so everyone is in tune with current information.

I'm not sure if you have a databse where you can look up part #s, but what comes up when you run through part # 36112282999?

One more request - Would you be able to produce a technical specifications document on the new ZCP wheels? I'm certain that there has to be a piece of documentation such as this.


Again, thanks for your help and patience. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this because the BMWUSA.com website hasn't always been the most reliable source of information. The most recent blunder was that the website listed the front ZCP wheels as being 8.5 inches in width where they in fact are 8.0 inches. (This was recently corrected on the website to reflect the correct 8.0 inch measure).


-Pete



So he came back with this e-mail this morning


Mr. Galakinokis:

My information is coming from our Parts Consultant Group (National parts warehouse) who has access to both US and German parts systems. ‘Alloy Rim’ is the only description shown when I run part number 36112282999. Unfortunately, I would not be able to provide a technical specifications document on the new ZCP wheels.

I agree that the www.bmwusa.com site can have incorrect information at times; however my information is coming directly from our parts group, not the website.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative



So I came back at him with this e-mail


Mr. Salla,

Thanks for looking into that part # for me. I'm wondering what BMW is doing by reserving part # 36112282999 with an 'alloy wheel' title. Do you think that they might be reserving that part # for that CSL rear-wheel switch over that I talked about earlier? (Discontinuing the current part # and adding a new one.)

It's unfortunate that you cannot provide me with the spec sheet for the ZCP wheel, but I was wondering if you could do me a huge favor and let me know what the exact weight is of both the front and rear ZCP wheels? I'd appreciate that very much. Here are the part #s again.

ZCP front wheel: 36 11 2 282 895 M127 cross spoke wheel 8 J x 19 ET47
ZCP rear wheel: 36 11 2 282 999 M127 cross spoke wheel 9 1/2 J x 19 ET27



I'd like to thank you again for patience, and wanted to let you know that you have been a tremendous help.



Sincerely,


-Pete



The only spec I could think of to ask him on the ZCP wheels was the weight. Is there another piece of information that someone might be looking for? Let me know - I'll ask.

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 02:50:06 PM
Just got off the phone with my bro at the dealership. He looked them up again, and noticed that the nomenclature says "Light Alloy" rim for the fronts, and just "Alloy" rim for the rears. Of course "Light alloy" could mean forged or spun cast. So that's really no help.

Something strange he told me....there are 39 sets of the fronts on backorder right now in the USA, but only 7 sets of the rears. Kind of strange...maybe the 325 and 330 guys are ordring 4 fronts to put on their cars?

M3Tech
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 02:54:13 PM
Maybe this issue will never be cleared by BMWNA because any official CSL info, addendums, bulletins and advisories will only be available in countries that indeed sold the CSL... the US is not in that list as Chief pointed out.

What I do know for sure is that I did order the CSL wheels using the ETK part numbers in the US and after three weeks a notice came at the parts department saying that there was a "Technical Block" on these wheels, which is weird because my VIN number was never requested to order these wheels, the part numbers are available in the ETK and even the order went thru for three weeks. In fact, according to the parts supervisor that "Technical Block" does not even mean that the order is cancelled, however he does not know what is next; IMO, maybe the next step in the ordering process is actually asking for the VIN number.

Maybe I will end up receiving only two CSL rear wheels because they are the same as the ZCP's rears in their Euro books over there... :D

Rob's Archive
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 02:59:23 PM
Scott...i bet if you went over to E46fanatics and posted that question about if people are buying the CSL's for their regular 3series, you would get your answer

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 03:06:48 PM
Yep...you're probably right, Rob. Nice sig by the way.:thumbsup:

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 03:52:39 PM
Maybe this issue will never be cleared by BMWNA because any official CSL info, addendums, bulletins and advisories will only be available in countries that indeed sold the CSL... the US is not in that list as Chief pointed out.

What I do know for sure is that I did order the CSL wheels using the ETK part numbers in the US and after three weeks a notice came at the parts department saying that there was a "Technical Block" on these wheels, which is weird because my VIN number was never requested to order these wheels, the part numbers are available in the ETK and even the order went thru for three weeks. In fact, according to the parts supervisor that "Technical Block" does not even mean that the order is cancelled, however he does not know what is next; IMO, maybe the next step in the ordering process is actually asking for the VIN number.

Maybe I will end up receiving only two CSL rear wheels because they are the same as the ZCP's rears in their Euro books over there... :D
I'm thinking that the fact that the order was requested for a US delivery triggered the 'Technical Block' on your order becuase the CSL was never sold in the US. I'm assuming they'd only deliver the wheels to those countries that had the CSL available.

Army Chief
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 03:56:14 PM
Don't want to just point folks in another direction for answers, but RS2 has just posted some relevant data after I contacted him for whatever new information he might have. Looks like we're on the right track ...

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6185216-1.html
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6185107-1.html
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6183472-1.html

Chief

M3Tech
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 04:30:37 PM
I'm thinking that the fact that the order was requested for a US delivery triggered the 'Technical Block' on your order becuase the CSL was never sold in the US. I'm assuming they'd only deliver the wheels to those countries that had the CSL available.

That's what I think, and probably the next step in this ordering process was to submit the VIN if I wanted delivery. I cancelled the order nevertheless...

Regardless, this was an experiment to confirm the VIN requirement and the US non delivery thru dealers. Too many times people repeat whatever they read somewhere in the net as facts without going to the source. :nixweiss:

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 05:47:43 PM
Alright guys so I got the weights of the wheels for us. Here's the e-mail I just got back from Mr. Salla:

Mr. Galakinokis:

With respect to reserving or canceling a part number, unfortunately I’d have no information whatsoever. That type of decision is made by BMW Germany. Wheel weights are as follows:

2 282 895 - 12,626 Grams
2 282 999 - 13,790 Grams

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative


Now someone go convert those into LBs pls :D


Do we want to try to get any other info from this nice gentleman?

Raffy-D
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 05:57:59 PM
2 282 895 - 12,626 Grams
2 282 999 - 13,790 Grams


wow, those are some very heavy wheels...

fronts = 27.8 lbs
rears = 30.89 lbs

....

i'm receiving a set of ZCP rims on Monday and will take pictures and weigh them on an accurate scale.

FYI... UPS indicates that the 2 heavy boxes of the 4 (i'm assuming those are the rears) including the rear rim/packaging/and box weigh 29lbs... so something here is off.

i'll post on Monday when i get them.

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:01:18 PM
Ya...something is way off. Raffy's calculations are correct, but the CSL wheels weigh nowhere near 30 lbs. They are 23 lbs for the rears...and around 22 for the fronts.

Those ZCP weights are not indicative of a "forged" rim, or even a "spun-cast" rim. They are more indicative of a normally "cast" rim than anything else.

M3Tech
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:02:20 PM
Alright guys so I got the weights of the wheels for us. Here's the e-mail I just got back from Mr. Salla:

Mr. Galakinokis:

With respect to reserving or canceling a part number, unfortunately I’d have no information whatsoever. That type of decision is made by BMW Germany. Wheel weights are as follows:

2 282 895 - 12,626 Grams = 27.8100276 lbs
2 282 999 - 13,790 Grams = 30.373854 lbs

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative


Now someone go convert those into LBs pls :D


Do we want to try to get any other info from this nice gentleman?

http://www.oldwillknott.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/3376.7.2851976883130949213

... I think that Mr. Salla looked at the wrong chart or this ZCP "lightweight"/forged wheel label is not all that. :nixweiss:

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:17:12 PM
Ya...something is way off. Raffy's calculations are correct, but the CSL wheels weigh nowhere near 30 lbs. They are 23 lbs for the rears...and around 22 for the fronts.

Those ZCP weights are not indicative of a "forged" rim, or even a "spun-cast" rim. They are more indicative of a normally "cast" rim than anything else.
Looks like we have another dilema that we're going to need to work out. We'll wait around for Monday when Raffy comes back with his real-life weigh-ins.



EDIT: It couldn't possible be that he gave me the weight measurements of the wheel WITH the tire on could he?

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:22:29 PM
Yep. I assume Raffy's scale is a typical, uncalibrated home-scale....no way to get an exact weight, but it should still be accurate enough to show whether or not these wheels are in the 30lb range, or low 20 lb range.

Will Pwr
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:24:21 PM
EDIT: It couldn't possible be that he gave me the weight measurements of the wheel WITH the tire on could he?

Its a possibility, but I honestly would think that the weights in this case would be too low to be realistic. :nixweiss:

Raffy-D
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:28:54 PM
Yep. I assume Raffy's scale is a typical, uncalibrated home-scale....no way to get an exact weight, but it should still be accurate enough to show whether or not these wheels are in the 30lb range, or low 20 lb range.

Scott... i'm receiving the wheels at work, and i'm going to bring them over to our shipping department to be weighed... they have a very accurate scale there, not one of those home-style scales.

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:31:02 PM
It looks like BBS does make Forged wheels:

http://www.tirerack.com/images/wheels/bbs/swap/bbs_rgr_bsp_1000.jpg


I'm going to have a look to see if my wheels are marked with forged, cast etc.. anywhere.

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:37:34 PM
I'm going to e-mail Mr. Salla and tell him to give me the weights of the stock 19" wheels:

Front: 36112229650
Rear: 36112229660

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 06:40:00 PM
No...definitely not. Even the lightest brands of tires (Toyo, Mich. PS2, Contis) in the 255/35/19 size are all in the 24 lb range by themselves. And there is no such thing as a 19" wheel only weighs 6 lbs.

Raffy - Good to know brother. A scale like that would be much more trustworthy.

EDIT: It couldn't possible be that he gave me the weight measurements of the wheel WITH the tire on could he?

Army Chief
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:18:50 PM
No offense, but I'm not putting much stock in bathroom scale (weight) measurements. Somehow, my feeling is that they will be, at best, inconclusive. Raffy's scale should give us more useful information, but even this doesn't seem likely to really put the matter to rest.

Chief

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:25:15 PM
No offense, but I'm not putting much stock in bathroom scale (weight) measurements. Somehow, my feeling is that they will be, at best, inconclusive. Raffy's scale should give us more useful information, but this doesn't seem likely to really put the matter to rest.

Chief
Well at least we'll know the true weight of the wheels so we can put a checkmark next to Item #1 on the list. :D

Raffy-D
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:30:08 PM
No offense, but I'm not putting much stock in bathroom scale (weight) measurements. Somehow, my feeling is that they will be, at best, inconclusive. Raffy's scale should give us more useful information, but even this doesn't seem likely to really put the matter to rest.

Chief

1st of all, i will not be using a bathroom scale.

2nd of all, i actually would trust a bathroom scale in being able to distinguish between 23lbs and 30lbs.

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:39:25 PM
No offense, but I'm not putting much stock in bathroom scale (weight) measurements. Somehow, my feeling is that they will be, at best, inconclusive. Raffy's scale should give us more useful information, but even this doesn't seem likely to really put the matter to rest.

Here you go; should be more than accurate enough to distinguish between 23 and 30 lbs.


http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=648458&postcount=82

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:49:19 PM
Raffy + Divex - learn to read fools! :chair:

Raffy's scale should give us more useful information, but even this doesn't seem likely to really put the matter to rest.

Chief

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 07:56:52 PM
No offense, but I'm not putting much stock in bathroom scale (weight) measurements. Chief
Practice what you preach, Idz. :chair: :thumbsup:

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 08:03:09 PM
Practice what you preach, Idz. :chair: :thumbsup:
haha Do as I say, not as I do. :D

Anyway, I realize Chief made a blunder with his 1st statement, but he then corrected himself in the following sentence. Unfortunately he did not go back and erase his original mistake, at which both you and Raffy decided to stop reading. :chair: :wave:

Divexxtreme
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 08:12:32 PM
I don't think he made a mistake. He was saying that he won't trusta bathroom scale to be accurate enough though it may give us some useful info. But regardless of the info it gives, I think he feels the issue won't be put to rest until someone that actually has both a rear ZCP wheel and a rear CSL wheel in their hands can do a side-by-side weight comparison on the same scale, or until we can find another way to verify whether they are the same or not.

If the ZCP wheel actually weighs 30 lbs..the issue will be put to rest for me at least. I know my rear CSL wheels weigh 23 lbs each, because the day they arrived...I went out to my garage and weighed them side-by-side an extra (curbed) OEM 19" I had. The OEM 19" weighed 29 lbs...and the CSL weighed 23 lbs on the exact same scale. But I'll be very surprised if the ZCP wheels really weigh that much.

I'm sure Chief can clarify will he meant...but I think he simply missed Raffy's post about using a scale at work.

Idz21
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 08:24:53 PM
Well I put some more miles on my ZCP wheels today. Finally got a chance to take it out after it's beeng sitting in the garage when I got back from SC. :D

Army Chief
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 11:17:53 PM
Divexxtreme managed to catch what I was after, but obviously I must have left some room for confusion in there somewhere.

All I was saying is that I'm not sure a bathroom scale reading could ever really be considered reliable for our purposes here. These scales are graduated improperly, they are not usually calibrated, and they often have significant margins for error. Are we going to be able to nail a one or two pound difference using a bathroom scale? I doubt it. I just don't think they are very useful beyond giving us rudimentary estimates from which to work.

Raffy's proposal struck me as much more sound in a scientific sense, but still rather limited application-wise unless examples of each wheel were on hand for a side-by-side comparison. Even then, if there were minute differences between the two, what would this really tell us? Would major differences help to clear things up? I'm just saying there are a lot of variables here, and weight alone isn't going to solve the mystery -- if indeed one exists.

Chief

ArtM3
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 11:22:51 PM
OK guys, send me a complete set of each type, ZCP & CSL...

I'll run a test to see if the molecules are aligned (i.e. forged)

I will also do a density displacement test

and a Rockwell hardness test, basically how easily they scratch

this will tell us if the are forged...

BTW I keep the wheels :D

Raffy-D
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 11:23:58 PM
Raffy's proposal struck me as much more sound in a scientific sense, but still rather limited application-wise unless examples of each wheel were on hand for a side-by-side comparison. Even then, if there were minute differences between the two, what would this really tell us? Would major differences help to clear things up? I'm just saying there are a lot of variables here, and weight alone isn't going to solve the mystery -- if indeed one exists.

Chief

I see what you're saying now. However, i'm not trying to prove that the CSL & ZCP rears are the same wheels by weighing them... i'm only going to try to prove/disprove the e-mail from bmwna saying that the rear ZCP's weigh close to 30lbs... that's it.

:peace:

Army Chief
Fri, Jan-28-2005, 11:32:36 PM
Raffy

I'm completely tracking with you now, too.

That makes perfect sense, and given that the whole intent of the ZCP program is to enhance track performance, you would think an unsprung weight reduction would have been high on their "to do" list. BMWNA's specs sound pretty far afield to me.

Chief

Idz21
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 12:42:44 AM
Alright so I got an e-mail back from Mr. Salla on the weight of the stock 19" rims:

Mr. Galakinokis:

Wheel weights are as follows:

36 11 2 229 650 - 12,626
36 11 2 229 660 - 13,266

As always, If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative


So it looks like those wheels are just as heavy as the ZCP wheels, except the ZCP rears are a little lighter. (Of course this is according to the BMW NA rep).

Raffy if you can take some pictures of the ZCP rims sitting on a scale where one can clearly see the actual weight of the wheels. I'll forward those images to BMW NA and let them know what's what, if in fact the ZCP wheel is much lighter than what they claim, in reality.

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 12:44:56 AM
Alright so I got an e-mail back from Mr. Salla on the weight of the stock 19" rims:

Mr. Galakinokis:

Wheel weights are as follows:

36 11 2 229 650 - 12,626
36 11 2 229 660 - 13,266

As always, If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative


So it looks like those wheels are just as heavy as the ZCP wheels, except the ZCP rears are a little lighter. (Of course this is according to the BMW NA rep).

Raffy if you can take some pictures of the ZCP rims sitting on a scale where one can clearly see the actual weight of the wheels. I'll forward those images to BMW NA and let them know what's what, if in fact the ZCP wheel is much lighter than what they claim, in reality.

Tony Salla, sounds 'made', he's gonna be showing up at your door! :gun:

Raffy-D
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 12:45:58 AM
Raffy if you can take some pictures of the ZCP rims sitting on a scale where one can clearly see the actual weight of the wheels.

yup, i'll do it right :peace:

killer junior
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 01:03:10 AM
Don't want to just point folks in another direction for answers, but RS2 has just posted some relevant data after I contacted him for whatever new information he might have. Looks like we're on the right track ...

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6185216-1.html
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6185107-1.html
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6183472-1.html

Chief

I subscribe to this theory.

M3Tech
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 01:45:51 AM
Alright so I got an e-mail back from Mr. Salla on the weight of the stock 19" rims:

Mr. Galakinokis:

Wheel weights are as follows:

36 11 2 229 650 - 12,626
36 11 2 229 660 - 13,266

As always, If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail.

Sincerely,

Anthony Salla
Customer Relations and Services
Representative


So it looks like those wheels are just as heavy as the ZCP wheels, except the ZCP rears are a little lighter. (Of course this is according to the BMW NA rep).

Raffy if you can take some pictures of the ZCP rims sitting on a scale where one can clearly see the actual weight of the wheels. I'll forward those images to BMW NA and let them know what's what, if in fact the ZCP wheel is much lighter than what they claim, in reality.

Actually, according to Mr. Sallas previous email communication to you both ZCP and Polished 19" front wheels weight exactly the same 12.626 kg and the ZCP rear wheels are heavier than the Polished 19" rear wheels (13.790 kg vs. 13.266 kg).

I'll be replacing some time next week my Polished 19"s for the ZCP's (Turner has a backlog on orders) and damn sure I'll be weighting them too... the report of ZCP wheels being only 100g per wheel heavier than CSL will turn out to be another net urban legend if these numbers ends up being correct.

This "light weight alloy wheels" label is quickly becoming a joke... :nixweiss:

Idz21
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 01:50:30 AM
Actually, according to Mr. Sallas previous email communication to you both ZCP and Polished 19" front wheels weight exactly the same 12.626 kg and the ZCP rear wheels are heavier than the Polished 19" rear wheels (13.790 kg vs. 13.266 kg).

I'll be replacing some time next week my Polished 19"s for the ZCP's (Turner has a backlog on orders) and damn sure I'll be weighting them too... the report of ZCP wheels being only 100g per wheel heavier than CSL will turn out to be another net urban legend if these numbers ends up being correct.

This "light weight alloy wheels" label is quickly becoming a joke... :nixweiss:
I think that's exactly what I wanted to say. I might have been bamboozled while at work, and didn't know what the heck I was talking about.

Idz21
Sat, Jan-29-2005, 01:51:50 AM
btw - is there some sort of publication that specifically states that the new ZCP wheels are supposed to be lighter than the stock 19"s? If we have something like that I can throw that at Mr. Sallas and see what he says.

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:32:01 PM
UPDATE.... i've received the rims... :wave:

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:44:04 PM
lots of boxes...

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:45:01 PM
the front...

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:45:52 PM
the front wheel's part #

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:46:54 PM
the rear wheel...

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:48:27 PM
this is where the plot thickens.... the rear wheel's part #... notice the description "M3 CSL"... yet i don't think they're the same wheels as CSL's.

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:52:58 PM
i do not see anything stamped on the inside of the wheel which indicates that they are either forged or cast.


However, there are other stampings on the inside... is anyone interested in me taking other pictures of them besides the one attached below?

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 09:54:31 PM
okay, that's it for now... i'll post pictures later today when i've got them weighed.

:peace:

RydeWitM3
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:01:36 PM
are those CSL wheels or ZCP wheels??

Divexxtreme
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:15:00 PM
Those look like CSL's to me . Especially the stamped "BBS" on the inside. I'll be shocked it they weigh more than 23 lbs a piece.

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:36:20 PM
I'm back from the weighing! :wave:

the conclusion: BMWNA doesn't know JACK SQUAT about their wheels! :rofl2:

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:41:58 PM
weight of ZCP front wheel = 23 lbs

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:42:54 PM
weight of ZCP (CSL?) rear wheel = 24.2 lbs

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:43:58 PM
no glare...

RydeWitM3
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:44:58 PM
so the ZCP and CSL are the same wheels except we get the 19x8(ZCP) vs 8.5(CSL) for the front?

Raffy-D
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 10:49:18 PM
so the ZCP and CSL are the same wheels except we get the 19x8(ZCP) vs 8.5(CSL) for the front?

who knows! :banghead:

with the rear ZCP wheel part# on my box, the fact that it says 'M3CSL' on it, and that it weighs roughly 24lbs, i'm starting to think that the rear ZCP rim is the exact same as the CSL.

the front wheel is obviously different due to its width, but the manufacturing process (spun casting) may be the same.

M3Tech
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 11:00:53 PM
who knows! :banghead:

with the rear ZCP wheel part# on my box, the fact that it says 'M3CSL' on it, and that it weighs roughly 24lbs, i'm starting to think that the rear ZCP rim is the exact same as the CSL.

the front wheel is obviously different due to its width, but the manufacturing process (spun casting) may be the same.

Good job, Raffy-D... :thumbsup:

Dave04M3
Mon, Jan-31-2005, 11:27:24 PM
One other thing that really deserves consideration. When the Champion RG4s were being developed, there were specific features of the CSL wheel that could not be duplicated with their forging process. That's why the spokes are not rounded and the lip isn't as deep.

I don't see how/why BBS could (or would even bother) overcome these problems for the ZCP wheels.

-Daver

The reason the RG4's don't have the same amount of lip is not due to the forging process. It was due to them being a .5" wider and more aggressive offset. The spokes having more "edge" is because of the forged process. I love the look of the CSL wheels, I like the spokes better than the RG4's. However I went with the RG4's due to the same weight savings and the more aggressive offset and wider rim width the CSL offered not to mention a heck of a lot easier to get your hands on G-d forbid you smack one up. Dave

JoaneeBonee
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 12:49:32 AM
nice!

ArtM3
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 12:53:10 AM
The reason the RG4's don't have the same amount of lip is not due to the forging process. It was due to them being a .5" wider and more aggressive offset. The spokes having more "edge" is because of the forged process. I love the look of the CSL wheels, I like the spokes better than the RG4's. However I went with the RG4's due to the same weight savings and the more aggressive offset and wider rim width the CSL offered not to mention a heck of a lot easier to get your hands on G-d forbid you smack one up. Dave

the BBS RGR & RS-GT series are forged, and have rounded edges....

Dave04M3
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 01:09:25 AM
the BBS RGR & RS-GT series are forged, and have rounded edges....

Don't know what to say Art...Champion who manafactured the wheel for RAC Monolite and Chuck D (who is a good friend of mine) stated the reason they couldn't do the rounded edge like the CSL was due to the forging process. I love the RSGT wheels though.. :thumbsup:

However, the reason for the lip difference between the CSL/ZCP and RG4 wheel is not because of the process, it is due to the fact that the RG4's have a more aggressive offset as well as a .5" wider width which is what I was relaying not the rounded spokes. Dave

dizzy
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 01:22:30 AM
the BBS RGR & RS-GT series are forged, and have rounded edges....

Bigger pic...

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6183472-1.html

-David

ArtM3
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 01:28:53 AM
Bigger pic...

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/6183472-1.html

-David

my favorite wheel, but I settled for oem 19's forged though!

Divexxtreme
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 01:53:10 AM
Good job Raffy! I'm willing to bet that the scale is slightly off (only a lb or so, which is perfectly normal), and the wheels actually weigh just what we thought; 23 and 22 lbs. I also am now 99% convinced that they are indeed the CSL "spun-cast" wheels, and not a seperate forged wheel like BMW has said.
Great job. :beer:

who knows! :banghead:

with the rear ZCP wheel part# on my box, the fact that it says 'M3CSL' on it, and that it weighs roughly 24lbs, i'm starting to think that the rear ZCP rim is the exact same as the CSL.

the front wheel is obviously different due to its width, but the manufacturing process (spun casting) may be the same.

Idz21
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 01:55:19 AM
Awesome Raffy. Great news :D

What's the weight of the front CSL rim?


btw - I'm going to save these pics and send them over to Mr. Salla to show him what's what. It seems like BMW pulled another fast one on us. Well, at least tried to.

Raffy-D
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 02:07:23 AM
btw - I'm going to save these pics and send them over to Mr. Salla to show him what's what. It seems like BMW pulled another fast one on us. Well, at least tried to.

it will be interesting to see what he has to say about this. keep us posted.

Euphoria///M
Tue, Feb-01-2005, 02:28:58 AM
I just went through reading the whole thread. My eyes feel like this now: :eek2:

Props to raffy and idz for doing all of this to find out the truth of this matter. I support you guys 100% and await Anthony's email to see what he has to say about this. We should get a 50% discount on CSL/ZCP rims ordered from them because of our findiings :rofl2: ...


:beer:

Raffy-D
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 03:51:51 AM
finally on the car...

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 03:59:01 AM
finally on the car...
Two words: WOW! :thumbsup:



Looks amazing.

Raffy-D
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:02:25 AM
Two words: WOW! :thumbsup:

Looks amazing.

Thanks.

I think it makes the car look MUCH more sporty... compared to my sig with the forged 19s.

any news from the bmwna rep?

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:05:30 AM
Thanks.

I think it makes the car look MUCH more sporty... compared to my sig with the forged 19s.

any news from the bmwna rep?
You know I didn't get a chance to send him an e-mail yet. I've been pretty busy, and probably lazy. It's kind of like - hey we got our answer by you weighing the wheels first hand, so I kind of lost interest in pursuing the information any further. Although, I do want to send him proof that the information he gave me is wrong.

Rez
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:06:26 AM
Niiiccceee, what tires have you got on those wheels?

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:07:04 AM
Niiiccceee, what tires have you got on those wheels?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, black ones. :chair:

Raffy-D
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:08:18 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, black ones. :chair:

sounds like an "MLINER" answer :rofl2:

they're S03's... 245/275

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:11:00 AM
sounds like an "MLINER" answer :rofl2:

they're S03's... 245/275
What's that supposed to mean?

Rez
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:25:44 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, black ones. :chair:


:bs: :spank:

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 03:00:47 PM
Raffy - How much did the ZCP wheels cost you, if you don't mind me asking?

M3Tech
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 04:14:09 PM
Thanks.

I think it makes the car look MUCH more sporty... compared to my sig with the forged 19s.

any news from the bmwna rep?

You are too damn right that it is not funny... :thumbsup:

That's exactly how I feel about the OEM 19"s, they look too luxurious for the M3 to me since I bought it. The ZCP/CSL wheels, in the other hand, takes the M3 look to the sport side and still looks BMW and not aftermarket IMO. That's the way your car look now to me compared with your sig.

I cannot wait until I got my set installed... :peace:

Raffy-D
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 05:08:58 PM
Raffy - How much did the ZCP wheels cost you, if you don't mind me asking?

$1800

I ordered them well before they became back-ordered to hell.

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 05:47:34 PM
$1800

I ordered them well before they became back-ordered to hell.
You got a pretty damn good deal on them. :thumbsup: The only thing now is that everyone and their mother are getting these wheels, which loses the "special" factor.

Raffy-D
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 06:08:27 PM
You got a pretty damn good deal on them. :thumbsup: The only thing now is that everyone and their mother are getting these wheels, which loses the "special" factor.

yes, a lot of people will have these wheels, oem & replicas. However, that's fine with me because the car now looks like it should have from the beginning.

Imagine if you had a CSL M3 and you found out that people who didn't have CSL's were able to buy your rims from others, that ZCP rims were essentially the same as CSL's, and that wheel companies were going to flood the market with replicas! kinda sucks for that exclusivity factor :nixweiss:

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 07:25:26 PM
yes, a lot of people will have these wheels, oem & replicas. However, that's fine with me because the car now looks like it should have from the beginning.

Imagine if you had a CSL M3 and you found out that people who didn't have CSL's were able to buy your rims from others, that ZCP rims were essentially the same as CSL's, and that wheel companies were going to flood the market with replicas! kinda sucks for that exclusivity factor :nixweiss:
I still think I'm special. :D

Divexxtreme
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 07:36:32 PM
Imagine if you had a CSL M3 and you found out that people who didn't have CSL's were able to buy your rims from others, that ZCP rims were essentially the same as CSL's, and that wheel companies were going to flood the market with replicas! kinda sucks for that exclusivity factor :nixweiss:

But in the case of the CSL..it doesn't matter since their are no CSL owners here in the states. Now everyone and their brother will have rims that look like mine.

ArtM3
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 08:07:49 PM
the oem 19's are looking better every day!! :D

Idz21
Thu, Feb-03-2005, 09:13:28 PM
But in the case of the CSL..it doesn't matter since their are no CSL owners here in the states. Now everyone and their brother will have rims that look like mine.
you mean that look like ours

Idz21
Sun, Mar-27-2005, 01:44:19 AM
So I brought up the suspension and wheel thing at the NY Auto Show today during a QA session with BMW. The answer I got for the suspension being originally offered as a ZCP specific part was that they "just decided" to put it on all M3s goin 12/04 and on because they said it was so good. Granted, it's a good decision, but why advertise it under the $4,000 price tag of the package if you're then going to make it standard? When I asked about a kick back from the $4,000 the guy told me the price between the two setups was marginal so it wouldn't even make a difference.

When I asked the M brand manager about the new suspension he actually told me that it was a softer suspension which provided a much smoother ride and at the same time managed to virtually eliminate body lean. I was surprised at that, as I thought they might have put in somewhat of a stiffer setup.

When I asked the M brand manager about the ZCP wheels being Spun Cast rather than Forged, he originally stated that Forging and Spin Casting is the same thing. :roll: He then retracted his comments but kept at it that the wheels were in fact forged. I told him about all the research we did here, how we weighed the wheels and that the rear-wheels have the same exact part # as the CSL wheels, but he didn't seem to be very knowledgable about it. He even owns one himself, but I find it slightly discerning that the M-brand manager himself doesn't even know what is being put on the vehicles that are under his wing. He was a nice guy and all because he took the time to speak with me after the QA session was over, but I wasn't too pleased at his lack of knowledge about his own product.

Bah, we're never going to get a straight answer.

ArtM3
Sun, Mar-27-2005, 01:54:30 AM
this thread is back!!!

they are going to be showing up at your house, you are their worst nightmare...lol

ballsy though....

Rez
Sun, Mar-27-2005, 05:27:30 AM
Does anyone know which part of the suspension is different? shocks or the spings? maybe both. :nixweiss:

Idz21
Sun, Mar-27-2005, 11:06:46 AM
Does anyone know which part of the suspension is different? shocks or the spings? maybe both. :nixweiss:
I believe it's both, but I know the springs are definitely diff.

Predator
Sun, Mar-27-2005, 11:12:31 AM
So I brought up the suspension and wheel thing at the NY Auto Show today during a QA session with BMW. The answer I got for the suspension being originally offered as a ZCP specific part was that they "just decided" to put it on all M3s goin 12/04 and on because they said it was so good. Granted, it's a good decision, but why advertise it under the $4,000 price tag of the package if you're then going to make it standard? When I asked about a kick back from the $4,000 the guy told me the price between the two setups was marginal so it wouldn't even make a difference.

When I asked the M brand manager about the new suspension he actually told me that it was a softer suspension which provided a much smoother ride and at the same time managed to virtually eliminate body lean. I was surprised at that, as I thought they might have put in somewhat of a stiffer setup.

When I asked the M brand manager about the ZCP wheels being Spun Cast rather than Forged, he originally stated that Forging and Spin Casting is the same thing. :roll: He then retracted his comments but kept at it that the wheels were in fact forged. I told him about all the research we did here, how we weighed the wheels and that the rear-wheels have the same exact part # as the CSL wheels, but he didn't seem to be very knowledgable about it. He even owns one himself, but I find it slightly discerning that the M-brand manager himself doesn't even know what is being put on the vehicles that are under his wing. He was a nice guy and all because he took the time to speak with me after the QA session was over, but I wasn't too pleased at his lack of knowledge about his own product.

Bah, we're never going to get a straight answer.
LOL

Petes mission in life ! ! ! !


Pete you realise you could have got a job for BMW M division !

Idz21
Sun, Mar-27-2005, 12:31:55 PM
LOL

Petes mission in life ! ! ! !


Pete you realise you could have got a job for BMW M division !
I'm seriously considering that I might need to.

x986
Mon, Mar-28-2005, 06:22:48 AM
When I asked the M brand manager about the new suspension he actually told me that it was a softer suspension which provided a much smoother ride and at the same time managed to virtually eliminate body lean. I was surprised at that, as I thought they might have put in somewhat of a stiffer setup.

Oh no! I cancelled an order for an '05 and bought an '04 because I didn't want a harder ride. Oh well, I saved $12,000.

x986
Mon, Mar-28-2005, 06:24:04 AM
How come I lost the shading in the above quote?

Rez
Mon, Mar-28-2005, 06:26:51 AM
When I asked the M brand manager about the new suspension he actually told me that it was a softer suspension which provided a much smoother ride and at the same time managed to virtually eliminate body lean. I was surprised at that, as I thought they might have put in somewhat of a stiffer setup.

Oh no! I cancelled an order for an '05 and bought an '04 because I didn't want a harder ride. Oh well, I saved $12,000.
Are you thinking of up grading your suspension?

Need4Spd
Sat, Apr-02-2005, 12:21:22 AM
So after reading this entire thread, some conclusions.

1. My eyeballs feel like :eek2:
2. Even BMW brand managers don't know exactly how their cars are contented and poor Salla is probably going crazy with all the questions (see no. 7).
3. We'll probably never know for sure whether ZCP wheels are spun cast or forged.
4. ZCP wheels weigh around 23-24 lbs. each ft./rr. :dance:
5. OEM 19" forged wheels weigh around 29 lbs. each. rr. according to someone's bathroom scale that put a CSL wheel at 24 lbs.
6. The '05 suspension has less body roll but softer springs.
7. Someone's car is going to get repossessed by BMW for asking so many questions about the same topic and embarassing all the BMW people. :rofl2:
OK, so someone give me + rep points for saving you from reading the whole thing like I had to! :bow:

Brown Skidmark
Sat, Apr-02-2005, 04:04:32 AM
Hey Need4spd, I just tried to give you some rep points(even though i read the entire thread previously) cuz you took the time to recap. I was promptly notified that I had to spread the love around some more b4 I can give you any more rep points... sorry

///Malicious
Wed, Oct-10-2007, 08:43:25 PM
I honestly can't wait until it is proven that BMW's allegedly forged wheels are indeed cast.

LALaw
Wed, Oct-10-2007, 10:47:27 PM
I think it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in this thread. BMWNA will never admit to it. I bet if you email them now, they'll just give you some garbage about the E92M3.

///Malicious
Wed, Oct-10-2007, 10:55:09 PM
I think it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in this thread. BMWNA will never admit to it. I bet if you email them now, they'll just give you some garbage about the E92M3.

Well, a bunch of folks over at Midatlantic section of the board seem to disagree. They are confident that their ZCP are forged. :rofl2:

LiquidM3tal
Thu, Oct-11-2007, 12:18:06 AM
Well, a bunch of folks over at Midatlantic section of the board seem to disagree. They are confident that their ZCP are forged. :rofl2:

well that's because only that part of the country received the forged versions.

ThatOneGuy
Thu, Oct-11-2007, 01:56:34 AM
What's with all these 2 year old threads suddenly popping up again?! Guess I shouldn't complain, looks like the "search" feature is finally getting used.

Idz21
Thu, Oct-11-2007, 02:54:36 AM
well that's because only that part of the country received the forged versions.

hahaha exactly. Plus studies have shown that the midatlantic region has the lowest average IQ.... in the world.

F2468
Tue, Dec-23-2008, 09:50:17 PM
Couldnt we have just contacted BBS and asked? Since they manufacture the rims for both and would know if there were indeed different rims being produced? (Doesnt seem logical as two identical rims being produced differently simply to claim different manufacturing processes sounds like a waste of resources)

Idz21
Tue, Dec-23-2008, 10:07:03 PM
Couldnt we have just contacted BBS and asked? Since they manufacture the rims for both and would know if there were indeed different rims being produced? (Doesnt seem logical as two identical rims being produced differently simply to claim different manufacturing processes sounds like a waste of resources)

Thanks for volunteering! Can you shoot them over an e-mail asking. Maybe they'll give us a straight answer.

Mookster
Wed, Dec-24-2008, 12:50:45 AM
Lol, after reading this entire thread i still have a question...are they forged or casted?

:rofl3:

Idz21
Wed, Dec-24-2008, 01:16:29 AM
Lol, after reading this entire thread i still have a question...are they forged or casted?

:rofl3:

Soon, our man F2468 will give us the answer after he speaks with BBS. :thumbsup:

MPOWERD
Wed, Dec-24-2008, 04:06:24 AM
"Location: Not canada"...

I like that! :laughhard:

cabochad
Sat, Dec-27-2008, 05:05:24 AM
While we're on the subject, are the 'standard' 19's forged? And who makes them? (Couldn't find that in a seach, all that comes up are CSL/ZCP wheels.

TIA,
chad

chopstik
Sat, Dec-27-2008, 07:38:21 AM
While we're on the subject, are the 'standard' 19's forged? And who makes them? (Couldn't find that in a seach, all that comes up are CSL/ZCP wheels.

TIA,
chad

the non-ZCP wheels are forged and made by fuchs

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=184949&highlight=makes+oem+wheels

E.K M3
Mon, Dec-29-2008, 05:05:28 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M3#M3_Competition_Package
Check the wikipedia....
19-inch BBS spin-cast (flow formed) alloy wheels (marketed as "forged")

tenfifteen
Mon, Dec-29-2008, 06:17:43 PM
I believe they're spun cast, but I don't count anything in a wiki as authoritative on anything unless there's a link to a source.

F2468
Mon, Dec-29-2008, 08:23:32 PM
Soon, our man F2468 will give us the answer after he speaks with BBS. :thumbsup:

I dont speak Japanese. I think this conversation I am supposed to have with a rep. from BBS would go better if I did LOL I realize they probably speak some english, but with the degree of complexity to our question as to the products made for a certain manufacturer, wouldnt that be somewhat drawn out and test the language barrier? :lolhit:

Idz21
Tue, Dec-30-2008, 12:58:55 AM
I dont speak Japanese. I think this conversation I am supposed to have with a rep. from BBS would go better if I did LOL I realize they probably speak some english, but with the degree of complexity to our question as to the products made for a certain manufacturer, wouldnt that be somewhat drawn out and test the language barrier? :lolhit:

Give it a shot, you might be surprised :thumbsup: