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View Full Version : Saw the dumbest ZCP today w/ 19" forged wheels for more $$$


TZL
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 08:13:24 AM
today i was at a local BMW dealer checking out their unsold ZCP M3

to my disappointment, the CSL-style wheels had been replaced with the normal 19" forged wheels that you can get on any m3. To add insult to injury, this spec was $1750 on top of the ZCP package. What a freaking rip.

You get 19" CSL-style wheel (which are more desirable IMHO) for the $4k you pay for a ZCP package, so the lease they can do is give you a no-cost swap to the normal 19" forged wheels, instead they charge you an additional $1750 for it....what crap.

If that car has std ZCP wheels, i'd probably be driving it right now instead of posting.....Oh well my search for a M3 continues.........

e36M3r
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 08:41:36 AM
That's an odd one!

MLINER
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 08:46:53 AM
THIS WAS AT CREVIER BMW IN SANTA ANA,I ORDERED MY ZCP THERE LAST NIGHT!!!.Here are the pics of it.by the way i took a test drive in that it was SMG 2.

Rated///M
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 08:58:18 AM
You paid not to have the CSL Style wheels?!?!?!

MLINER
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 09:00:43 AM
You paid not to have the CSL Style wheels?!?!?!
No Way there was a M3 ZCP order that was Interlagos Blue and someone had ordered Regualar M3 rims.It had smg 2.I ordered special order,With CSL Wheels.

MLINER
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 10:09:09 AM
I ordered it with the CSL Style Rims.

daytonaviolet
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 10:19:34 AM
today i was at a local BMW dealer checking out their unsold ZCP M3

to my disappointment, the CSL-style wheels had been replaced with the normal 19" forged wheels that you can get on any m3. To add insult to injury, this spec was $1750 on top of the ZCP package. What a freaking rip.

You get 19" CSL-style wheel (which are more desirable IMHO) for the $4k you pay for a ZCP package, so the lease they can do is give you a no-cost swap to the normal 19" forged wheels, instead they charge you an additional $1750 for it....what crap.

If that car has std ZCP wheels, i'd probably be driving it right now instead of posting.....Oh well my search for a M3 continues.........

omg, where was this at?

daihard
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 12:13:33 PM
omg, where was this at?
The way I took it was, the pictures mliner took show the car that the OP is talking about. The OP is in the Bay Area, and mliner says he'd driven that car in Santa Ana... They are both in California, right?

Budman
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 03:26:36 PM
Thats retarted that they are adding the cost of the other wheels.. why owuld someone choose the stock over the ZCP Wheels..?

nrubenstein
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 03:29:58 PM
If I were that dealer, I would have told the guy that there's no way in hell I'd let him do that and off a no cost swap once the car got there.

EMAXX
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 03:33:08 PM
That's pretty stupid, but I guess if you don't know to much aobut the M3, then it's a great way for the dealer to make a little bit more money off of you.

M3_shin
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 03:55:03 PM
I would demand that they replace the rims.....because those rims are APART of the ZCP package. Thats so messed up, that dealers are trying to make more money of the package, always so damn sneaky.

Army Chief
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 03:58:35 PM
Don't know that it is downright stupid, but you have to wonder what the purchaser was thinking. The way I see it, these ZCP wheels are going to become extremely commonplace once they begin arriving in dealer parts departments. Guys will likely migrate to them whether they have OEM 18s or 19s.

On the other hand, OEM 19s have never been exactly rare, but a lot of owners went directly from 18s to aftermarket wheels, so you don't see them every day. I suspect they will actually see a resurgence in popularity once the ZCP/CSL style has played out. Sometimes it isn't about what looks good: it is about having something that the other guy doesn't. Silly, but true.

Just keep in mind that, of all three wheel types mentioned, the OEM 19s still have some significant advantages: they are stronger, better made (forged) and more expensive than either of the others. I'm still not altogether sure if the ZCP package is "worth it," but that seems less likely to be the case when you take the CSL-esque style 127 wheels out of the picture. Regardless, the OEM 19s are really the best wheel BMW offers for the E46 M3 -- it was even an option on the CSL, and that ought to tell you something.

Chief

Army Chief
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 04:09:10 PM
Here's a bit of proof, for those who think ZCP/CSL wheels are the "top of the heap." Take a look at the European dealer prices c/o RS2 at Roadfly ...


18" M3 Wheels 1670 Euro + VAT
19" M3 Wheels 2165 Euro + VAT
19" CSL Wheels 1550 Euro + VAT

19" ZCP Wheels aren't available in Europe, but in Euro, a set would cost you a mere 1408 Euro + VAT ... the cheapest of the entire lot. Nice wheels, to be sure, but just don't kid yourself into thinking that they are qualitatively superior to the OEM 19s. That is why a savvy buyer MIGHT choose to stick with the OEM 19s, even if he opted for ZCP. Many CSL owners did the same thing.

All I'm trying to say is that this situation probably has nothing to do with customer stupidity or a disreputable dealer (which Crevier is not). You've got to consider all of the facts guys. :)

Chief

Red330I
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 04:32:05 PM
Those wheels look great with Interlagos, but there's no way they should be charging the price of the wheels on top of the price for the comp. package.

Army Chief
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 04:39:19 PM
True..

The only way the upcharge for wheels really makes sense is if his ZCP wheels were also included in the deal, but just not mounted on the car. I seriously doubt that the buyer would have any trouble selling them, were that his intention. :)

Chief

Divexxtreme
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 04:58:02 PM
The buyer may not have ordered them that way at all. There are at least two posts on Bimmerforums where people have ordered the ZCP package (with the ZCP wheels)...but ended up mistakenly getting the standard 19" wheels on their car when it arrived. Apparently from a mess-up at the factory.

TZL
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 05:47:27 PM
it was at BMW of SF


omg, where was this at?

TZL
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 05:49:07 PM
if anyone knows of an unsold Interlagos ZCP sitting at a dealership, please let me know

i'm looking to pick one up soon without wait around for an order

tinglouie@yahoo.com

thanks

ting

Idz21
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 06:27:49 PM
Here's a bit of proof, for those who think ZCP/CSL wheels are the "top of the heap." Take a look at the European dealer prices c/o RS2 at Roadfly ...


18" M3 Wheels 1670 Euro + VAT
19" M3 Wheels 2165 Euro + VAT
19" CSL Wheels 1550 Euro + VAT

19" ZCP Wheels aren't available in Europe, but in Euro, a set would cost you a mere 1408 Euro + VAT ... the cheapest of the entire lot. Nice wheels, to be sure, but just don't kid yourself into thinking that they are qualitatively superior to the OEM 19s. That is why a savvy buyer MIGHT choose to stick with the OEM 19s, even if he opted for ZCP. Many CSL owners did the same thing.

All I'm trying to say is that this situation probably has nothing to do with customer stupidity or a disreputable dealer (which Crevier is not). You've got to consider all of the facts guys. :)

Chief
Would the ZCP wheels be cheaper due to the fact that their manufacturing procedure, although "superior," is the most cost effective?

ob3
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 06:59:53 PM
Turner Motorsports is already advertising ZCP wheels at around 20% off list when I checked few days ago. Man if I wasn't planning on holding onto my car for the long term...

Edit: Sale price only $1836.80 per set!! (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=M3COMPWHEELS) How tempting!!

e36M3r
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 07:06:44 PM
The ZCP / CSL wheels are spun cast, and it is a better manufacturing technique then the traditional casting, and produces a wheel almost as good as a forged wheel but at a lesser cost. Forged wheels are still the best, but these are a close second. Whereas the cast of old, were much more brittle than these CSL/ZCP wheels. IE: ZCP wheels are more comparitive to forged than to traditional cast.

Would the ZCP wheels be cheaper due to the fact that their manufacturing procedure, although "superior," is the most cost effective?

daihard
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 07:12:22 PM
Just keep in mind that, of all three wheel types mentioned, the OEM 19s still have some significant advantages: they are stronger, better made (forged) and more expensive than either of the others. I'm still not altogether sure if the ZCP package is "worth it," but that seems less likely to be the case when you take the CSL-esque style 127 wheels out of the picture. Regardless, the OEM 19s are really the best wheel BMW offers for the E46 M3 -- it was even an option on the CSL, and that ought to tell you something.
The ZCP 19-inch rims are forged, too. ;)

Someone also mentioned that the ZCP 19-inch rims were not available in Europe. I wonder what the customers in Germany get when they order ZCP. According to Roundel, ZCP is available there for 5,300 euros.

And tires? Does ZCP include the same high-performance tires that come with the M3 CSL?

Divexxtreme
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 07:16:37 PM
FYI...The ZCP wheels aren't forged. That's a typo by BMW. They're the same wheels as the CSL wheels, with the rears beign the exact same part#...and the fronts being .5 inch narrower with a different part #. Both are spun-cast.

Tires are regular PS's. Not R-compounds like on the CSL.

Army Chief
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 07:20:55 PM
Q: "Would the ZCP wheels be cheaper ...?"

A; Yes and no. :)

First of all, spin casting does not produce a wheel that can really be considered "superior" to a forged wheel like the OEM 19". A spun cast wheel simply cannot match a forged wheel in terms of overall strength and longevity, but in fairness, that is because it is built for an entirely different purpose.

Spin casting is more economical, of course, but the real reason for going with this process is to save weight. A ZCP/CSL wheel is engineered to be lighter than a similarly sized "street wheel" to reduce unsprung weight. Given that the CSL and ZCP M3s are intended to be rather pure track cars, this only makes sense.

It is a whole different kind of driving than the day to day commute, and that's why BMW chose to offer something a bit more robust (forged) when they introduced the OEM 19" wheel. So, you can truly "have it your way," depending upon where you plan to put your car through it's paces. Can't really go wrong either way.

Chief

Army Chief
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 07:24:47 PM
Since the above post appeared while I was working on a separate reply, let me address the ZCP/Europe question:

- As far as I've been able to determine, no "Competition Package" exists in the ECE (European) market.

- If you ask a local dealer to run the part numbers for you (as I did two days ago) they will tell you that these wheels are not available in Germany.

- The only exception of which I am aware was the British "Club Sport" package, which was reputed to use these same spun cast ZCP wheels.

Things may change, of course, but that is how it looks at the moment.

Hope this helps.

Chief

P.S.1. e36m3r is absolutely on the mark with respect to the technological background on spin casting. It is definitely superior to traditional casting, but not quite the equal of a good forging. Back to the old strength versus weight issue ...

P.S.2. Divexxtreme also called it right on the ZCP as a cast, not forged wheel. ZCP wheels are not forged. CSL wheels weren't either. BBS makes both via the aforementioned spin cast method.

e36M3r
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 07:39:33 PM
I'm wondering if somene wanted the ZCP wheels, so they took them off the ZCP car and replaced them with the standard 19's? Then to add instult to injury :agree: they try to charge the 1750 for them!! :smiley_ab

Army Chief
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 07:45:27 PM
e36M3r,

I'm hoping and praying that no dealer in the entire U.S.A. would be that stupid, but we've probably both seen worse. :???:

Chief

e36M3r
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 08:47:06 PM
Hope bleeds eternal! :thumbsup:

BTW: We are going to take a drive down there now, it's a real nice sunny day here, so I'll let you know if we see it.

e36M3r,

I'm hoping and praying that no dealer in the entire U.S.A. would be that stupid, but we've probably both seen worse. :???:

Chief

dizzy
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 08:57:32 PM
FYI...The ZCP wheels aren't forged. That's a typo by BMW. They're the same wheels as the CSL wheels, with the rears beign the exact same part#...and the fronts being .5 inch narrower with a different part #. Both are spun-cast.

Tires are regular PS's. Not R-compounds like on the CSL.

BMWUSA still lists forged wheels in the ZCP description. Has anyone wrote them asking about that yet? I wrote them a few weeks ago when they listed 8.5" fronts and they wrote back the next day saying "oops" then fixed the site that same day to say 8".

-David

Idz21
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 09:00:59 PM
BMWUSA still lists forged wheels in the ZCP description. Has anyone wrote them asking about that yet? I wrote them a few weeks ago when they listed 8.5" fronts and they wrote back the next day saying "oops" then fixed the site that same day to say 8".

-David
I'll send them an e-mail via the owner's circle and see what they say.

E90_GEN
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 09:13:06 PM
Damn that sucks, they let you test drive someone else's car. That would **** donkey .... Because the owner hasn't seen his car so he would just think the added 5 miles happend in the factory. That is making me angry.

daihard
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 09:14:05 PM
- As far as I've been able to determine, no "Competition Package" exists in the ECE (European) market. The only exception of which I am aware was the British "Club Sport" package, which was reputed to use these same spun cast ZCP wheels.
Thanks for the information.

I believe the Roundel was referring to the Club Sport package when they talked about its pricing in Germany. In fact, ZCP was originally called "Club Sport package" in the U.S., too. until they somehow decided to change it to "Competition Package." Don't know the reason behind the name change.

Divexxtreme also called it right on the ZCP as a cast, not forged wheel. ZCP wheels are not forged. CSL wheels weren't either. BBS makes both via the aforementioned spin cast method.
I should write to Roundel and complain! I tend to believe what's said in that magazine simply because it's the official BMW Car Club of America publication. Luckily, knowledgeable people like you are always here to educate me better. :thumbsup:

Army Chief
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 10:24:00 PM
Just got a couple of very relevant updates from RS2, so I wanted to work them into this thread to help minimize confusion.

Apparently, the ZCP/Competition Package IS now available in Europe as well, but it is not getting much press. The thought is that this is at least partly deliberate, as there are still a few unsold CSLs in this market. In any event, the listed option price for the package is reputed to be 5,300 Euro! That is much, much higher than ZCP in the States, and the prevailing thought is/was that SMG II was supposed to be part of the package. That would likely explain the price.

Also, the Club Sport I referred to earlier was only familiar to me from info I've gleaned over at BM3W (in the UK) over the past couple of years. Turns out that their Club Sport package isn't really an M3 associated offering; it is something more akin to our 330Ci "performance package" back home.

Just don't want to unwittingly put out confusing or unclear information. I try to state it up front when I am less than completely sure about something, but I know some of these details don't square with one or two of my musings from earlier in the evening. Consider yourselves officially updated! :)

Chief

Daver
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 11:10:15 PM
It would not make sense for this car to come with two sets of wheels.

The $1700 19" upgrade is an upgrade fee. You don't get 18" and 19" wheels.

The $4000 ZCP is also an upgrade fee. You don't get two steering wheels, two steering racks, two sets of brakes, wheels, etc.

$5700 for ZCP with 19" forged...very, very odd. No straightforward way for a salesman/dealer to price that though except by ordering both for $5700, or ordering two cars, one of each, and swapping as suggested.

Oh well. Bundles ****.

-Daver

Fastdog911
Sun, Jan-23-2005, 11:55:35 PM
My guess.. end of the month.. salesman had a customer that HAD to have those wheels..meant selling or not selling a car.. did a swap to sell the car.. didnt remove upcharge on sticker or is hoping someone didnt notice.. maybe the guy ordered the car that way with those wheels and the window sticker is in error..

daihard
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 12:04:23 AM
What I wonder myself is, why put the cheaper rims on ZCP (or on the CSL for that matter) as standard? Are those CSL/ZCP wheels lighter than the OEM 19-inch rims? I seriously doubt it.

Idz21
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 12:45:49 AM
What I wonder myself is, why put the cheaper rims on ZCP (or on the CSL for that matter) as standard? Are those CSL/ZCP wheels lighter than the OEM 19-inch rims? I seriously doubt it.
The ZCP wheels weigh 24 lbs each. The price difference between the wheels does not dictate that one wheel is better than the other. I think in this case it's the fact that the ZCP wheel is made in a much more cost effective manner than the stock M3 wheels.

Again, we can't gauge the quality of the wheel based off of the price alone.

daihard
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 12:52:05 AM
The ZCP wheels weigh 24 lbs each. The price difference between the wheels does not dictate that one wheel is better than the other. I think in this case it's the fact that the ZCP wheel is made in a much more cost effective manner than the stock M3 wheels.

Again, we can't gauge the quality of the wheel based off of the price alone.
I'm not saying the price is the only factor, but if the ZCP wheels are so much more cost-effective, why doesn't BMW make that available for the standard M3?

And how much do the OEM 19-inch rims weigh?

Idz21
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 01:21:21 AM
I'm not saying the price is the only factor, but if the ZCP wheels are so much more cost-effective, why doesn't BMW make that available for the standard M3?

And how much do the OEM 19-inch rims weigh?
They do offer the ZCP rim for the standard M3 now that the ZCP package was released. The wheels can be purchased separately. Why they weren't offered before? Who knows.

I might be off on the 24 lb weight of the ZCP wheels, as I noticed that Scott had some other #s in another post which talked about the wheels as well. Something along the lines of 22.4 lbs in the front, and 23 lbs in the rear.

acitydweller
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 01:32:04 AM
here's a tip... Dont just go by the sticker. Everything is negotiable.

daihard
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 01:38:35 AM
They do offer the ZCP rim for the standard M3 now that the ZCP package was released. The wheels can be purchased separately.
I went to the BMW NA site to check the pricing on the ZCP wheels. The option isn't there at all. Should I just go to the dealer to ask about the availability?

Also, the BMW NA Web site still says the ZCP rims are forged. Where should I go in order to obtain the correct information about the rims?

TZL
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 01:47:07 AM
nah,

its ordered that way, its on the window sticker....i can't believe someone ordered it that way....



I'm wondering if somene wanted the ZCP wheels, so they took them off the ZCP car and replaced them with the standard 19's? Then to add instult to injury :agree: they try to charge the 1750 for them!! :smiley_ab

Idz21
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 01:53:50 AM
I went to the BMW NA site to check the pricing on the ZCP wheels. The option isn't there at all. Should I just go to the dealer to ask about the availability?

Also, the BMW NA Web site still says the ZCP rims are forged. Where should I go in order to obtain the correct information about the rims?
You should be able to order these rims from the dealer just by asking them. With regards to the rims being forged or spun cast - I have sent an e-mail to BMWNA via the Owner's Circle to see what they say.

I have a ZCP M3 sitting in my garage, but there is no indication anywhere as to whether the wheels are forged or spun cast. Supposedly since the part # of the rear wheels is the same as the CSL rim, they would have to be spun cast. (The front wheels have a different part # because the CSLs are 8.5 width and the ZCPs are 8.0)

daihard
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 03:52:28 AM
You should be able to order these rims from the dealer just by asking them. With regards to the rims being forged or spun cast - I have sent an e-mail to BMWNA via the Owner's Circle to see what they say.
Ah, that's cool. I would appreciate your letting me know once you get their reply.

I have a ZCP M3 sitting in my garage, but there is no indication anywhere as to whether the wheels are forged or spun cast. Supposedly since the part # of the rear wheels is the same as the CSL rim, they would have to be spun cast. (The front wheels have a different part # because the CSLs are 8.5 width and the ZCPs are 8.0)
I see. I guess the ZCP rims must be spun-cast as long as the CSL rims are so, then. :thumbsup:

Idz21
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 03:59:02 AM
Ah, that's cool. I would appreciate your letting me know once you get their reply.


I see. I guess the ZCP rims must be spun-cast as long as the CSL rims are so, then. :thumbsup:
I'll post up what they say once I get a response.

Check out this post which has some good info on the wheels as well as a nice deal on the ZCP rims -> http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=54129

BattleWagon
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 03:59:52 AM
QUESTIONS:

What is the difference between CAST and SPUN-CAST?

Does it matter to the layman who puts 10k miles a year and tracks the car once a year?

Why is forged better then either cast method?

Divexxtreme
Mon, Jan-24-2005, 04:08:19 AM
e46r - You literally come across as the biggest hater on this forum with all your BS, negative posts. It's getting very old and you need to knock it off.

All ZCP's are dumb. Get a regular M3 and use the money you save for suspension and the rest on wheels.