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View Full Version : lowering with springs alone???


lthsa
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 05:20:42 AM
i'm planning to lower just a little bit of my m3 since i replaced new rims (BBS LM's) and tires.
i want to lower the car only for the look so i don't want to get stiffer rides after it is lowered.
i don't want to spend a lot of money for this as well.
my concern is the lowering with springs alone would be ok?
it won't be ruined the shock or something?
also which brand name (Eibach, H&R, etc.....) of springs should i get for stock riding quailty?
please share your knowledge. :thumbsup:
thanks,

teddy.

Beowoulf
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 06:45:51 AM
Here I did the search for you. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/search.php?searchid=176787

sy0296
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 06:49:54 AM
honestly if all you want is a lowered stance, a lowering spring is a great way to do it. People will tell you that the shock will wear out pre-maturely and your ride will go to sh-t requiring you to buy new shocks which would put the cost of your spring+shock combo at the same price range as some coilovers...blah blah blah.

the lowering springs for the M3 aren't that short, and I had my H&R for a good 15k+ miles. No diminish in ride quality over that period. No doubt a coilover will offer you better performance, but if all you want is a lowers stance without spending the big bucks, many of the lowering springs out there will suit your needs.

GHOSTRIDER
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 05:05:29 PM
UUC Tuned Springs are the only aftermarket ones that are specifically tuned to match the OEM shocks. So they say.

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 05:12:24 PM
the least amount of drop is the Tein HiTech ~ 1/2" all around, next Eibach 0.6 F/0.9 R
both have spring rates ~10% stiffer than stock, the Eibachs are progessive so the intial ride point is ~ the same as stock, and firm up as compressed

I've put >100k miles between my e36 and e46 with no abnormal ride degradation

the Eibachs are TUV (German DOT, but more stringent and do actual testing) approved for use with the oem shocks

fcboarder1
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 05:51:47 PM
theres another post right now where a guy blew out his shocks with HR springs. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=54237 check out that thread and see what he has to say. Everyone warns that the OE shocks will die, but he is really the only person ive seen report this problem. Most people that do just springs have no problems for many miles. but it is obvious that the springs alone will lower the life of your OEM shocks at least by a few miles.

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 05:59:29 PM
theres another post right now where a guy blew out his shocks with HR springs. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=54237 check out that thread and see what he has to say. Everyone warns that the OE shocks will die, but he is really the only person ive seen report this problem. Most people that do just springs have no problems for many miles. but it is obvious that the springs alone will lower the life of your OEM shocks at least by a few miles.

not everyone warns that, including Eibach
why is it obvious? the physics don't seem to bear this out?

about the thread:
miles ?
initial condition?
which H & R, race or sport
what wheels? the weight of the wheel will have impact on shock wear

from Eibachs website FAQ:

5 What shocks or struts should I use with an Eibach Pro-Kit?
Eibach Pro-Kits are designed to work with original equipment shocks and struts provided they are in good working condition.


13 Does the Eibach Pro-Kit work with the OEM shock?
All Eibach Pro-Kits are engineered to perform in harmony with the original damper of the special vehicle - taken for granted they are in a good working condition. All TÜV approvals in Germany certify the combination of the Pro-Kit with an OEM shock.


14 What happens to the warranty of the OEM shock when combined with Eibach Pro-Kit?
There is no change of the warranty. Actually, the weight of the car and the required basic dynamic work remain the same. Though with special progressive characteristic of the Pro-Kit, the damper is challenged more and usually makes it wear out faster.

no. 14 says they usually (not always, depends on the drop) wear out faster, but ANY shock will wear out faster due to the nature of the springs...and they won't BLOW out. so the life MAY drop from a 100k to 90k... :nixweiss:

the oem's are made by Sachs, some of the best made

lthsa
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 07:47:52 PM
thanks for all the replies. :beer:
now i would lower a car only with the springs. :agree:
but i can't decide which one should i go with.
Eibach Pro or UUC Tuned??? :nixweiss:
please help me up for making a decision.
thanks,

teddy.

MP3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 08:22:01 PM
Vogtland is also TUV. It's one of best quality springs out there.

It's 50mm front ... 30 mm rear. ---> 1 inch front and 0.8 rear.

I'm gonna install it soon.. :dance:
So .. I will post up pics before & after and follow-up :thumbsup:

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 08:34:29 PM
Vogtland is also TUV. It's one of best quality springs out there.

It's 50mm front ... 30 mm rear. ---> 1 inch front and 0.8 rear.

I'm gonna install it soon.. :dance:
So .. I will post up pics before & after and follow-up :thumbsup:

that's a lot of lowering 2" in front, 1.2" rear....

1" = 25.4 mm

MP3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 08:45:14 PM
that's a lot of lowering 2" in front, 1.2" rear....

1" = 25.4 mm

Sorry typo

It's 30 mm / 20 mm ---> which equals to 1.2 / 0.8... :beer:

MP3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 08:47:50 PM
not everyone warns that, including Eibach
why is it obvious? the physics don't seem to bear this out?

about the thread:
miles ?
initial condition?
which H & R, race or sport
what wheels? the weight of the wheel will have impact on shock wear

from Eibachs website FAQ:

5 What shocks or struts should I use with an Eibach Pro-Kit?
Eibach Pro-Kits are designed to work with original equipment shocks and struts provided they are in good working condition.


13 Does the Eibach Pro-Kit work with the OEM shock?
All Eibach Pro-Kits are engineered to perform in harmony with the original damper of the special vehicle - taken for granted they are in a good working condition. All TÜV approvals in Germany certify the combination of the Pro-Kit with an OEM shock.


14 What happens to the warranty of the OEM shock when combined with Eibach Pro-Kit?
There is no change of the warranty. Actually, the weight of the car and the required basic dynamic work remain the same. Though with special progressive characteristic of the Pro-Kit, the damper is challenged more and usually makes it wear out faster.

no. 14 says they usually (not always, depends on the drop) wear out faster, but ANY shock will wear out faster due to the nature of the springs...and they won't BLOW out. so the life MAY drop from a 100k to 90k... :nixweiss:

the oem's are made by Sachs, some of the best made

Great info.. :thumbsup:

HDClown
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 09:03:16 PM
I've got an M3 with H&R Sport Springs and OEM shocks. I got my car used at 16,500 miles with the H&R's on it. I don't know how long they were on however. I know have 23k miles and it's very obvious there are issues with the OEM shocks and struts. You will degrade your OEM shocks/struts with a lowering spring.

I'm not saying you'll totally blow out the shocks/struts so they leak all over the place, but dampening effectiveness with reduce greatly over time. At 23k miles it's extremely evident in my car. That leads me to believe the H&R's were on for almost the entire length of the cars life to date.

As for your warranty, I don't care if you got Eibach, UUC, H&R, Tein, etc., your dealer is 99.9% of the time going to tell you to walk if you complain about your OEM shocks/struts if they see a aftermarket spring.

SImple fact is, while an aftermarket spring may be designed for the OEM suspension, if they cause the car to lower in any way, then you are working the OEM shock and strut outside of it's original designed tollerances, thus causing premature wear.

If you want to save cash, go ahead and put in the springs, then wait for the ride quality to deteroriate, then put in shocks/struts. Or get a lightly used OEM shock/strut and put those back in, if you don't want to spend a lot of cash. But be aware that it's about 4 hrs labor to swap that equipment, so unless it's a DIY, you may want to do shocks and strust in the first place.

THe cheapest combo of aftermarket suspension is pretty much Koni shocks/struts and some lowering spring like Eibach, H&R or Tein. New you'll pay $600-650 for Koni's and $250 for springs. If you shop used, you can find lightly used springs for as low as $100.

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 09:20:15 PM
I've got an M3 with H&R Sport Springs and OEM shocks. I got my car used at 16,500 miles with the H&R's on it. I don't know how long they were on however. I know have 23k miles and it's very obvious there are issues with the OEM shocks and struts. You will degrade your OEM shocks/struts with a lowering spring.

I'm not saying you'll totally blow out the shocks/struts so they leak all over the place, but dampening effectiveness with reduce greatly over time. At 23k miles it's extremely evident in my car. That leads me to believe the H&R's were on for almost the entire length of the cars life to date.

As for your warranty, I don't care if you got Eibach, UUC, H&R, Tein, etc., your dealer is 99.9% of the time going to tell you to walk if you complain about your OEM shocks/struts if they see a aftermarket spring.

SImple fact is, while an aftermarket spring may be designed for the OEM suspension, if they cause the car to lower in any way, then you are working the OEM shock and strut outside of it's original designed tollerances, thus causing premature wear.

If you want to save cash, go ahead and put in the springs, then wait for the ride quality to deteroriate, then put in shocks/struts. Or get a lightly used OEM shock/strut and put those back in, if you don't want to spend a lot of cash. But be aware that it's about 4 hrs labor to swap that equipment, so unless it's a DIY, you may want to do shocks and strust in the first place.

THe cheapest combo of aftermarket suspension is pretty much Koni shocks/struts and some lowering spring like Eibach, H&R or Tein. New you'll pay $600-650 for Koni's and $250 for springs. If you shop used, you can find lightly used springs for as low as $100.

makes me wonder if the H & R are TUV certified for use with the oem shocks?
they do lower a lot more than the Eibach 1.2" vs. 0.6", that seems like not much, but it's 200%, and an decreased travel but proportionally a larger amount

I know the H & R are much stiffer, and that may account for the problems with the them, they would have to be, or you'll be bottoming out a lot more, which may be part of the problem

ANY shock will wear out faster with a stiffer spring, now an aftermarket one may handle better

how do you know the shocks are worn, dyno tested?

could be several things, I mean lowering the car too much wrecks havov with the geometry, premature bushing/ball joint wear, etc.

HDClown
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 09:38:50 PM
Are you referring to the Eibach Pro-Kit? I saw some pictures a car with Pro Kit and stock suspension and it's really hard to see the difference in height, especially when I then look at my car, but I'm getting almost 2x the drop, so that's why.

I like the idea of a progressive sting with not much more increased stifness then stock, but I don't know if I'd justify $250 for such a minimal drop frm the Eibach.

What about the Tein springs, what can you tell me about those?

I'm fixing to buy a lightly used OEM suspension, and installing it myself. I planned to pull the H&R's and go back to the OEM springs, but if I can get a better compromise of OEM and H&R w/o making the ride quality as bad as I have now, I'd do it.

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 09:53:04 PM
Are you referring to the Eibach Pro-Kit? I saw some pictures a car with Pro Kit and stock suspension and it's really hard to see the difference in height, especially when I then look at my car, but I'm getting almost 2x the drop, so that's why.

I like the idea of a progressive sting with not much more increased stifness then stock, but I don't know if I'd justify $250 for such a minimal drop frm the Eibach.

What about the Tein springs, what can you tell me about those?

I'm fixing to buy a lightly used OEM suspension, and installing it myself. I planned to pull the H&R's and go back to the OEM springs, but if I can get a better compromise of OEM and H&R w/o making the ride quality as bad as I have now, I'd do it.

That's the route I went, low mileage oem shocks with the Eibach, you can tell it's lowered, slightly more agressive, and rides almost oem. In fact it's less nervous and bouncy, and takes bumps better, and definitely has less roll and hasn't bottomed out yet. I did it for the handling, the looks are a bonus. I put some miles on mine, and wanted the most cost effective solution. Look around, you can get some very low mile oem shocks for ~$200. You'ld be better off spending the diff on new mounting hardware, etc., it ain't cheap from the dealer.

I put it on myself, I highly suggest new strut mounts & shock mounts, bumpers, etc. If the other stuff is shot, they probably are too

I've posted some pics, I'll edit and post the links

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=43974


all IMHO, I'm no expert, but have a lot of experience :peace:

HDClown
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 10:01:54 PM
I was reading the post of springs and their lowering heights. 1.2/0.5 on HR but 0.6 and 0.9 on the Eibachs. Less in front, more in the rear. Obviously to reduce almost all of the forward rake.

But I'm a little confused as to if I'm having issues with ride quality with a 0.5 rear drop, shouldnt 0.9 make it worse, even if it is progressive?

I was thinking about spending some $$ on new rear shock mounts, but not OEM ones since they are garbage. So I looked at GCs for $100, but they seem to be tailored towards a specific shock and I worry if I decide I want to upgrade later to a Koni or such, I'll have to buy new RSMs.

When you say strut mounts, are you talking about the hat, the bearing, which exactly?



That's the route I went, low mileage oem shocks with the Eibach, you can tell it's lowered, slightly more agressive, and rides almost oem. In fact it's less nervous and bouncy, and takes bumps better, and definitely has less roll and hasn't bottomed out yet. I did it for the handling, the looks are a bonus. I put some miles on mine, and wanted the most cost effective solution. Look around, you can get some very low mile oem shocks for ~$200. You'ld be better off spending the diff on new mounting hardware, etc., it ain't cheap from the dealer.

I put it on myself, I highly suggest new strut mounts & shock mounts, bumpers, etc. If the other stuff is shot, they probably are too

I've posted some pics, I'll edit and post the links

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=43974


all IMHO, I'm no expert, but have a lot of experience :peace:

ArtM3
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 10:32:30 PM
I was reading the post of springs and their lowering heights. 1.2/0.5 on HR but 0.6 and 0.9 on the Eibachs. Less in front, more in the rear. Obviously to reduce almost all of the forward rake.

the rear spring rates are ~2x the front, so if you put enough weight in the car to lower the front and inch, the rears will only go 1/2"

The car has too much rake oem, IMO, taking 0.3" out is hardly noticable, but adding 0.7 to the front makes it worse, most guys with the coil overs adjust most of it out.

From the factory the rear fender gap is ~3/4" larger (619mm vs 600, 19", measured from the lower rim lip to the bottom of the fender opening) than the front, so it actually helps even it out visually taking 7 or 8 mm more out of the rear.


But I'm a little confused as to if I'm having issues with ride quality with a 0.5 rear drop, shouldnt 0.9 make it worse, even if it is progressive?

Because the rear springs move so much less (2x as stiff) they wear less. Plus when you brake, weight is shifted to the front.

When you say strut mounts, are you talking about the hat, the bearing, which exactly?

bearings and hat, the foam cushions, rear shock mounts

FlyinM3
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 01:42:42 AM
where can i get eibach pro kits for the best deal?
tried searching but was unsuccessful...

ArtM3
Wed, Feb-02-2005, 01:53:47 AM
where can i get eibach pro kits for the best deal?
tried searching but was unsuccessful...


try ebay or google...

http://www.shox.com/ $250

Low Level
Sat, Jun-04-2005, 07:55:38 PM
Are Tein springs good quality, or not?

Any idea if Eibach Pro Kit's retain the same balance or ratio of front/rear stiffness as the OE springs?

pokerplayer
Sat, Jun-04-2005, 08:49:01 PM
I wanted a lower stance as well without an adverse difference in ride quality.
I decided to go with Vogtland springs.

I just had them installed this morning & pretty happy with the results. In my opinion, the stance of the car is now the way it should have been from the start. Ride quality so far is virtually identical to my stock ZCP springs, but just with a slightly lower stance. I didnt take measurements or pics before, but here it is after...

Low Level
Sun, Jun-05-2005, 12:36:11 AM
I wanted a lower stance as well without an adverse difference in ride quality.
I decided to go with Vogtland springs.

I just had them installed this morning & pretty happy with the results. In my opinion, the stance of the car is now the way it should have been from the start. Ride quality so far is virtually identical to my stock ZCP springs, but just with a slightly lower stance. I didnt take measurements or pics before, but here it is after...

Where did you get your Vogtlands?

Also - what are they like when you push them? Understeer pretty bad, or not?

MLINER
Sun, Jun-05-2005, 12:46:43 AM
Where did you purchase Vogtlands from?How much were they?

pokerplayer
Sun, Jun-05-2005, 12:47:54 AM
Bought the Vogtlands from Euromotive Tuning in La Habra, CA.
Cost was $204.67 total without shipping (had my girl pick them up for me)
http://www.euromotivetuning.com/

TWS in Walnut did the installation for a great price & in under 2 hours.

pokerplayer
Sun, Jun-05-2005, 12:52:34 AM
Havent really tried to push em hard yet, and it'll be a couple weeks for them to settle before I get the alignment done. After the alignment is when I'll really know how good these are performance wise, but visually they are exactly what I was looking for.

Low Level
Sun, Jun-05-2005, 01:25:15 AM
Havent really tried to push em hard yet, and it'll be a couple weeks for them to settle before I get the alignment done. After the alignment is when I'll really know how good these are performance wise, but visually they are exactly what I was looking for.

Please post and let us know how they perform. Man, I wish you had some spring rates for 'em :)

pokerplayer
Sun, Jun-05-2005, 01:43:56 AM
According to this I found (not sure if it refers to the e46).... (look at post 12)

http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95553

riuster
Tue, Jun-07-2005, 08:40:54 PM
After reading for several hours...Ill stick with OEM....:-(

acitydweller
Tue, Jan-10-2006, 07:27:57 PM
yeah... im feeling the same way...

I had my old G4 acura Integra lowerd 1.5 inches and now after 4 years, i am starting to notice all the bushings worn. Obviously a different class of make and quality but it goes to show how much stress it applies to the rest of the suspension system.

bmwJohhnyD
Sun, Jan-29-2006, 12:59:58 PM
After reading for several hours...Ill stick with OEM....:-(


oem suxors.... but if you like 4wheel drives.. i guess it is cool....

:chair:

NISMO_FREAK
Mon, Jan-30-2006, 04:58:40 AM
oem suxors.... but if you like 4wheel drives.. i guess it is cool....

:chair:


All this coming from GayBob who's car still looks like its in 4wd. :wave:

bmwJohhnyD
Mon, Jan-30-2006, 05:08:16 AM
All this coming from GayBob who's car still looks like its in 4wd. :wave:



what a clown... :haha: