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View Full Version : Powechips upgrad today..


Rob's Archive
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 01:23:33 AM
Note: Forum mods, this thread can be merged with craigdobs post on powerchips, when needed. I wanted to get some additional airplay on the powerchips upgrade since its a hot topic on the board.

Car #2 is now powerchiped as well. Originally back in 03, I powerchipped the m5 and it was a great thing. Easy to do and had some good outcomes...

Now with the m3 things are good and should continue to get better. While im happy with the program, I always try and want more...as we all do. I completely think that the program is worth the money for the increase (and a noticable one--even in the first 10 miles) in low and mid range torque. While the upper rev band picked up a little, there is the feeling that the car is a bit soft up there from the good increase in low and mid. Its the nature of the m3 and no matter what software I choose, with my current mods, its still going to stay that way.

Im happy, and love the sport throttle mapping from about 3700rpm+ I've even tried to speak with the guys at powerchips to work with me on the throttle mappings to make them even more aggressive to my tastes...as we did on the m5.

So its a good program, and it will get better with the next 60 miles or so and if the throttle mappings can become more aggressive...that would just make me :bow: to powerchips.

MikeR
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 01:32:52 AM
thanks for the write up. I spoke with Joel and Travis today, good guys. next, is finding time to get over there.

Mike

Rob's Archive
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 02:00:00 AM
True...

Also I should mention, that my car is a 03.5 SMG and doesnt require pulling any sort of fuses ala the Shark did.

So much easier to upload.

ROCKV7
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 02:22:02 AM
I assume you got the 93 gold? You noticed a nice increase in low end torque?

Divexxtreme
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 02:26:11 AM
Rob - You suk. :chair:


:rofl2:

M3_shin
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 03:07:14 AM
This software would void dealer warranty no???

Divexxtreme
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 03:16:43 AM
This software would void dealer warranty no???

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=637728&postcount=2

GHOSTRIDER
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 04:07:25 AM
Thanks for sharing Rob.
BTW, is the carwash in your sig the one down the street form Joel's shop? It looks very similiar to the one near BHS.

Rob's Archive
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 01:10:36 PM
Ghost,

Actually, im like 3 hours from joel up there in houston....
I just found that pic and thought it perfect to contribute to what people think texas is like...

Rock, because we get 93 octane here in TX (and cheap i must add as its refined right here in town) I have the 93 gold program.

Also, I have a few new files to try out on throttle remaps, that im going to get to today. Although its going to take a bit to try out as i need to do like 30 miles on each map to see if I like the throttle mapping.

spartacus700
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 04:26:22 PM
The more responses I read on this, the more I tend to think the difference you can really 'feel' is more driven by simply changing the throttle map to the gas pedal... "more gas for less pedal"... and also opening the throttle up more in the pedal mid-range... I would guess the reason you don't feel more pull at the high end now is because you're probably now at ~80% WOT from only pressing the pedal 50%. Another post said the car sounded louder after Powerchip... that can only be because the throttle is opening more aggressively.

I'm not saying there isn't more hp in there some where... I'm just skeptical that it would be perceivable in real driving.

After all the rigamorole and studying this for over a year now I have come to the conclusion that to get real power improvements from the E46M3 (without opening up the engine) the most straight-forwad thing you can do is simply change the headers and cats... software would help this. And by all acconts you get a legit gain in torque that easily shows up on the dyno and by the seat of the pants.

I was looking seriously at Powerchip but I just don't want to spend $600 bucks for another 'subtle' change.... I' done modding for a while...

Rob's Archive
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 05:34:56 PM
spartacus...

while i agree with some of the thoughts you have put down as that is truly what happens, your skepticism may get the best of you. While i completely agree that the higher the throttle map percentages the faster the car will react, hence the car appears as if its moving faster. I use a couple of techniques to determine if the car has better power...first off do a timed full throttle push from 6th gear from about 60-80. While some of that improvment can come from a more aggressive throttle mapping, some also has to come from the increase in rwhp (of about 6hp for powerchips depending on each persons own vehicle). Also a just off idle 2gear throttle stab...inducing the DSC. The longer that the DSC stays on, normally the more power you are putting down.

Spart, also if you have headers or plan on it, im totally with you on the "software is a must" theory. Its true that the m3 and m5 run lean when headers are used and hence software should be used to correct such a occurance.

Finally, while its great to see dyno improvments, are we not all just trying to have a better driving experience anyway? Isnt that the point of adding headers and cams and such? While the powerchips may not provide the biggest gains, it does provide for about $100/hp or roughtly about the same as the headers. Its great to have dyno numbers but who spins dynos all day to show off to their buddies....when your on a dyno your not going anywhere so it makes no sense to add 6, 60 or 600 hp as your still standing still.

Anyone can dyno their car all day...but if I were to walk past your car while doing a dyno run, im still making more relative speed than it.

Also isnt the effect of software the same as a LWFW? The car actually reacts faster to throttle imputs and hence accelerates faster?

spartacus700
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 07:00:02 PM
... While the powerchips may not provide the biggest gains, it does provide for about $100/hp or roughtly about the same as the headers.

... good point, which is a way of saying that if you want real gains that you
can feel make a big difference it's gona cost a lot.

I just think that it's all about expectations... if someone gets software for a throttle program they like better than stock that's all good... it's kind of like getting an exhaust for enhanced sound. I have just seen too many exampes of people being led to expect more out of mods than they actually deliver.

At the end of the day all most people really want is more low-end torque... but must of the easy mods don't do much to improve this... you got to get into the headers, diffs, and cams to really move torque significantly... just about every things else is chasing small change...

Nixlimited
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 07:05:41 PM
Do you really need a more agressive throttle map when you have an 800 hp M5???

Rob's Archive
Sat, Jan-22-2005, 07:28:23 PM
Spart,
again you make all relavent points...and while most agree that the headers, cams and what not are a great torque maker, they have a higher up front cost than software. Also software is a great mod for those that dont want to go to far, too fast.

We each have different mental processes and desires for our car and thats what makes the tuning market so great, each can do what they want when they want, as long as there are no altezza lights on an M3!!!! DamiT!

I too hate spending money on things that have little to no effect...like UDP's. Waste of money unless you have done everything else. 3hp is about jack in my book, but i have them...why, cause i could get them for a good price. Thats not to say that UDPs are bad, they just have a low outcome but also their price is low as well. All personal issues that one has to deal with inside.



As a side note, I just got done testing out my newer throttle mappings for the program and I would like to say that while the standard throttle map increase is 10%...im currently running 13% and it is by far phenominal! Even in 6th with the car at about 2000 rpm, pushing the pedal makes a change in speed. Its even more pronounced in lower gears. While this suits me and maybe others...and is an option to anyone looking for powerchips software (all you have to do is ask for the Rob Kolar throttle special), it may not suit others. I know that if I raced my car the throttle mapping would be a little too much for good throttle modulation under high G load...but for street driving its perfect.

spart...wish you all the best on what ever tuning route you choose, but if you ever have the chance to try out even the standard powerchips upgrade, give it a whirl. Its always money back and I have yet to see someone who has not liked it..both in the m3 and m5 communities.

Nick,
the throttle map on the m5 is actually going to be about a standard m5's throttle map as with the neck snapping ability of a 1000hp m5, there is little need to have it so aggressive...now, the m3 is another ball all together.

hsmith
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 08:43:48 PM
Triflow,
Did you get your Powerchip ECU from them directly or from Evosport?

Sean@D/A
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 08:46:31 PM
Triflow,
Did you get your Powerchip ECU from them directly or from Evosport?


We set up an M3forums discount directly from Powerchips.. theres a sticky with info on it.

Sean

Rob's Archive
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 09:37:31 PM
Woops.. i missed a post from a while ago apparently, wait no...its from today...so, no it was not done through evosport but Powerchips directly

m3bmwguy
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 10:09:53 PM
do the change the rev limit and/or top speed limiter?

dont forget its not just the maximum hp/tq numbers to look at, its the amount that is gained through out the powerband, this can be a huge change. hence im guessing there were pretty good gains down low like your descirbed and why the car seems to be lacking up top, since it only gains 6-9hp up top like powerchip states.

anyway nice write up

Rob's Archive
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 10:20:47 PM
Powerchips will take off the speed limiter but will only raise the rev limit if a signed waiver is completed. They feel that with the added power you do not need the higher rev limiter..its only like 100-200rpm anyway.

m3bmwguy
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 10:35:15 PM
ya i doubt there would be much gained from doing that, so how do powrchips gains compare to other companys that offer reflashes?

Grimm333
Wed, Feb-16-2005, 11:04:42 PM
nice...do they tune specific to what kind of fule you are running?

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 12:55:35 AM
while powerchips is more expensive than the Shark Injector that can be found on the market, it provides alot more though. The difference in the car is dramatic when compared to that of the car with the Shark Injector program on it. I cant speak for the eurobahn software but it should compare very well with that software. I would like to think that powerchips is the best but i can not definitvly say that.

Grimm333
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 12:59:52 AM
while powerchips is more expensive than the Shark Injector that can be found on the market, it provides alot more though. The difference in the car is dramatic when compared to that of the car with the Shark Injector program on it. I cant speak for the eurobahn software but it should compare very well with that software. I would like to think that powerchips is the best but i can not definitvly say that.



hahah..nice sig too :thumbsup:

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 01:04:38 AM
sorry grim..forgot to mention you post. They will tune to 93 octane...im not sure if they do 100octane or not. Havent asked so i wouldnt know.

Grimm333
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 01:07:18 AM
sorry grim..forgot to mention you post. They will tune to 93 octane...im not sure if they do 100octane or not. Havent asked so i wouldnt know.


np :thumbsup: time for an email :D

hsmith
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 01:08:36 AM
Triflow,
Have you previously had the shark to compare to the powerchips?

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 01:25:32 AM
yup...i had the shark from about january 04 through about november/december this year

hsmith
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 01:31:08 AM
yup...i had the shark from about january 04 through about november/december this year

Would you mind explaining how it is different? Thanks.

SpecialK
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 01:33:50 AM
You surprise me mister "Here's the real link" guy. The source man, go to the source! :beer: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htmhttp://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showpost.php?p=637728&postcount=2

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 01:48:09 PM
H,

saw that you were posting on m5board as well...man you cant get enough info huh? :thumbsup:

The shark, while being cheap, does have some limitations behind it. It is not specifically tuned to your vehicle. While the overall max power (HP) output of the shark and powerchips upgrade is about the same, the torque is a whole different story. Where as the shark felt stronger in the upper revs vs stock, the powerchips is stronger across the whole band and most importantly, low down torque is totally changed. With the mods that I had on the car, and then added the powerchips, the engines behaviour was more like a v8 rather than an I6. Strong just off ilde and certainly up to about 4K, but becuase you pass the torque peak, it feels like the car isnt as strong from about 5 upwards..its the toqure that throws off your judgement.

Throttle tip in with my car is vastly more aggressive with the powerchips than with the shark. When I had the shark and the UUC flywheel combo, it was like having the powerchips (my personal throttle map) without the flywheel.

Also you will get a 3 year warranty with the powerchips 93gold program..somehting that shark cant talk about at all.

Nixlimited
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 03:23:46 PM
Powerchips will take off the speed limiter but will only raise the rev limit if a signed waiver is completed. They feel that with the added power you do not need the higher rev limiter..its only like 100-200rpm anyway.

I would do it only for the sake of offsetting a higher ratio diff. That's what I Really want for my car now, that and PC software!

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 03:37:32 PM
with a 3.91 or a 4.xx diff an extra 100-200 rpm is going to net you next to nothing...im not sure what the calculation is though

hsmith
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 04:03:11 PM
H,

saw that you were posting on m5board as well...man you cant get enough info huh? :thumbsup:

The shark, while being cheap, does have some limitations behind it. It is not specifically tuned to your vehicle. While the overall max power (HP) output of the shark and powerchips upgrade is about the same, the torque is a whole different story. Where as the shark felt stronger in the upper revs vs stock, the powerchips is stronger across the whole band and most importantly, low down torque is totally changed. With the mods that I had on the car, and then added the powerchips, the engines behaviour was more like a v8 rather than an I6. Strong just off ilde and certainly up to about 4K, but becuase you pass the torque peak, it feels like the car isnt as strong from about 5 upwards..its the toqure that throws off your judgement.

Throttle tip in with my car is vastly more aggressive with the powerchips than with the shark. When I had the shark and the UUC flywheel combo, it was like having the powerchips (my personal throttle map) without the flywheel.

Also you will get a 3 year warranty with the powerchips 93gold program..somehting that shark cant talk about at all.

Triflow,

Thank you for the comparison. Did you have your Powerchips programmed for low end torque? Because there is a question on their website that asks you how you would like the power delivery. I chose everywhere but i personaly like more top end then low end torque.

Rob's Archive
Thu, Feb-17-2005, 04:37:03 PM
mine is pretty much low to mid..thats where powerchips as well as the others find the most power. I guess i have an all over program though. The m3 is pretty much..you get what you get, as theres so little to gain as is.

Nixlimited
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 12:48:53 AM
Your M5 has been in the shop for over a year? DAAAAMMMMMMNNNNNNN

Rob's Archive
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 12:52:13 AM
yup..it left for RMS on Feb 11, 2004...then it went to renn sport in like april and then to discovery automotive in like august

Idz21
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 12:55:06 AM
yup..it left for RMS on Feb 11, 2004...then it went to renn sport in like april and then to discovery automotive in like august
Do you know how to drive it?

Sean@D/A
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 12:56:15 AM
Oct.. but whos counting :)

Nixlimited
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 12:58:54 AM
Oh well, at least it finally got where it needed to go! :bow: DA

Sean@D/A
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 01:18:07 AM
Soon very very soon...

I'm actually going to be a little sad to see it go but Rob CERTAINLY has been more then patient waiting for her return

Rob's Archive
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 01:25:37 AM
woops...oct

Grimm333
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 01:29:23 AM
Soon very very soon...

I'm actually going to be a little sad to see it go but Rob CERTAINLY has been more then patient waiting for her return



patience is a virtue...i waited for ever for the completion of my car. I would rather have it done right than to be rushed :D

hsmith
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 03:19:45 AM
My only concern with Powerchips is that i will have to pay $50 for the first 3 years and after that $100 for a reflash of the software if it gets erased by the dealer. Although i am sure that is much better than many other software companies.

Rob's Archive
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 11:35:15 AM
well there is nothing more that i can tell you...it apparently sounds like you like the idea of having a box that runs the DME rather than a reflash so it sounds like the kelleners. Although at $1800 listed on their site, it sounds pretty damn rough on the wallet

hsmith
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 12:52:44 PM
well there is nothing more that i can tell you...it apparently sounds like you like the idea of having a box that runs the DME rather than a reflash so it sounds like the kelleners. Although at $1800 listed on their site, it sounds pretty damn rough on the wallet

Hey Triflow, what do you mean by i would like the idea of having a box that runs the DME rather than a reflash? From my understanding the Kelleners is a reflash as well and costs $800. You have been a great help with information about Powerchips and iam almost certain that i will get it although i just want to explore my other options while my car is still in storage.

Rob's Archive
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 02:35:52 PM
if you go to kelleners sport site

www.kelleners-sport.de you can see they offer chip tuning that is listed at 1800...i thought for that money it was a module.

Sean@D/A
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 05:09:06 PM
That seems strange.. I mean almost 2k to reprogram a dme..

Hmmm

hsmith
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 05:16:16 PM
if you go to kelleners sport site

www.kelleners-sport.de you can see they offer chip tuning that is listed at 1800...i thought for that money it was a module.

I was looking at kellenersusa.com

Rob's Archive
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 07:09:06 PM
ahh...well that would make more sense.

Rob's Archive
Fri, Feb-18-2005, 07:11:00 PM
so really thats nothing more then eisenhaus

markb50k
Wed, Feb-23-2005, 06:39:29 PM
Triflo,

how easy is it to dyno the car with Powerchips? I have Dinan, and the ONLY thing i really like about it, is that i can dyno VERY easily just by pressing the DSC button once.

Rob's Archive
Wed, Feb-23-2005, 06:57:28 PM
Mark,

it makes no difference...the ease or relative difficulty in dyno'n the car deals with the year of the car, not the program that is installed

Beach_Bum
Wed, Feb-23-2005, 07:08:11 PM
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but can an independent shop still hook up to the ECU after the Powerchips flash and clear fault codes if need be?

The reason I ask is because my car was acting weird a few weeks back, idling rough, stalling and showing SES light. I took it to my insependent service guy, he hooked it to the computer, cleared some codes and it's been fine ever since. I want to be sure I can do this again if need be with the Powerchip. Thx!

Rob's Archive
Wed, Feb-23-2005, 07:15:40 PM
hmm...great question. I dont see why not..my car is at the dealer currently for a couple of SES lights and a few SMG related lights, if the car acts fine after the dealer visit, i guess it would be ok. As long as they do not reflash the DME it should be fine

markb50k
Wed, Feb-23-2005, 07:16:13 PM
Mark,

it makes no difference...the ease or relative difficulty in dyno'n the car deals with the year of the car, not the program that is installed

Triflo, I dont think that is true. I think it has been discussed quite a few times, but whenever a car has any Dinan s/w, no matter the year, they can dyno using the "just press the DSC button once" thing, while i am pretty sure everyone else has to do the 20 second thing, or the fuse thing, or whatever.

Thanks

Rob's Archive
Wed, Feb-23-2005, 07:20:38 PM
hmm...strange. That makes little sense as BMW changed the DME requirments in 03 to make cars harder to dyno, where as pre 03 cars only needed to use the DSC button.

Im not 100% sure on this but I have yet to dyno my car, so i wonder if someone could enlighten us on it. I know that the 03 models generally need some techniques.