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View Full Version : What are the facts of having a square wheel set up?


ImolarotII
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 08:41:55 PM
Do this benefit in handling or is just like hellaflush trend having the front wheels poke out? Anyone have "more" rock chips on the side with this set up?

EYEHAVEYOU
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 08:56:09 PM
It will make the car handle more neutral / eliminate some of the tendency to understeer that a staggered setup has.

v dubb
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 09:15:04 PM
any cons to running a square set up?

bimmerfan08
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 10:05:05 PM
Ive only had good reviews with mine (265/35/18). The car grips in the corners and doesnt let go. Unlike the staggered setup, DSC interference is far less and from my experience I feel more stable in corners. I think the only downside is increased weight on the front as opposed to a stock staggered setup.

zerotosixty
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 10:21:54 PM
Dont overlook the fact that you can rotate your tires

M3ANMACHINE
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 10:54:12 PM
Ability to rotate tires
Elimination of Understeer (Better handling)
More "flush" front setup

I have nothing bad to say about my square setup!

SC_TR0JAN_M3
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 11:21:51 PM
I think the only downside is increased weight on the front as opposed to a stock staggered setup.

not necessarily true. often times people opt to go with lighter wheels all around. so even though you may have larger wheels up front, overall the weight will be decreased, still providing a pro instead of a con.

i've been running a square setup for a few years now and i love the fact that i can easily rotate my tires and get a few additional miles out of them. i haven't found a good reason why to go back to a staggered setup.

M3ANMACHINE
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 11:34:44 PM
not necessarily true. often times people opt to go with lighter wheels all around. so even though you may have larger wheels up front, overall the weight will be decreased, still providing a pro instead of a con.

i've been running a square setup for a few years now and i love the fact that i can easily rotate my tires and get a few additional miles out of them. i haven't found a good reason why to go back to a staggered setup.

My front wheels are 18x10 and only weigh 18lbs.

Zoomz
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 11:37:04 PM
Although it may be minimal I have found the spacers in the rear can be a bit of a pain. Minor con...
Every thing else seems to be a pro... As metioned above!

jkman720
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 11:40:12 PM
Do the fronts rub against the fender liners with 255/40/18's?

I test fitted some worn out t1r's and they slightly rubbed. I'm thinking of getting 255/35,but im worried it might still be a problem.

M3ANMACHINE
Mon, Aug-08-2011, 11:46:54 PM
Do the fronts rub against the fender liners with 255/40/18's?

I test fitted some worn out t1r's and they slightly rubbed. I'm thinking of getting 255/35,but im worried it might still be a problem.

I'm running 265/35/18 and don't rub at all. But I'm running -3 deg. camber

Zoomz
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 12:36:52 AM
I had 275s up front with plenty of clearnce on a stock rear.
I have 2.75 neg camber in the front.

bluewater87
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 03:14:32 AM
if you're going on like an offramp at a good pace, and hit a bump/road imperfection, having a more neutral/square setup vs a safer staggered setup, wouldn't there be a higher chance it would unsettle the rear and be more prone for the back end to slide out???

I'd like to do a square setup, but i feel safer knowing a staggered setup would understeer at the limit instead of oversteer with a square setup.

for the track this could be manageable, but on the street, oversteer at speed is :eek:

thoughts?

M3ANMACHINE
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 03:49:34 AM
if you're going on like an offramp at a good pace, and hit a bump/road imperfection, having a more neutral/square setup vs a safer staggered setup, wouldn't there be a higher chance it would unsettle the rear and be more prone for the back end to slide out???

I'd like to do a square setup, but i feel safer knowing a staggered setup would understeer at the limit instead of oversteer with a square setup.

for the track this could be manageable, but on the street, oversteer at speed is :eek:

thoughts?

It's not as exaggerated as it may sound, especially in a street setting...

xtremepsionic
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 06:28:52 AM
if you're going on like an offramp at a good pace, and hit a bump/road imperfection, having a more neutral/square setup vs a safer staggered setup, wouldn't there be a higher chance it would unsettle the rear and be more prone for the back end to slide out???

I'd like to do a square setup, but i feel safer knowing a staggered setup would understeer at the limit instead of oversteer with a square setup.

for the track this could be manageable, but on the street, oversteer at speed is :eek:

thoughts?

That could happen, but do you drive 10/10th on the street with DSC off? Might want to have some autox/track day to hone your skills and catch slides if you do drive like that! :thumbsup2:

I put 245 front / 255 rear so the car still understeers a touch at the limit, but it will rotate a lot easier than stock.

bimmerfan08
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 11:21:34 AM
not necessarily true. often times people opt to go with lighter wheels all around. so even though you may have larger wheels up front, overall the weight will be decreased, still providing a pro instead of a con.

i've been running a square setup for a few years now and i love the fact that i can easily rotate my tires and get a few additional miles out of them. i haven't found a good reason why to go back to a staggered setup.

My front wheels are 18x10 and only weigh 18lbs.

Im running OEM rear 18s all around for now :shifty:

jph28
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 01:02:31 PM
Do the fronts rub against the fender liners with 255/40/18's?

I test fitted some worn out t1r's and they slightly rubbed. I'm thinking of getting 255/35,but im worried it might still be a problem.

"It all depends". That said, I've worn a little section out of the front fender liners such that even 275/35-18 up front no longer brushes against them. A little rub on the fender liner shouldn't bother you, and a 255/40-18 will easily clear the stuff that matters with appropriate wheels (actual fender itself, suspension, etc). Don't run a 255/35-18 just to preserve the fender liner, that size is really small :twocents:

Jonathan 90 M3
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 01:14:23 PM
Do the fronts rub against the fender liners with 255/40/18's?

I test fitted some worn out t1r's and they slightly rubbed. I'm thinking of getting 255/35,but im worried it might still be a problem.

What is your wheel size and offset?

joenationwide
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 01:41:48 PM
These cars should have come stock with a square setup.

The lawyers made them run staggered.

That is all.

white333
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 04:12:30 PM
Here is a direct answer for you; the ONLY benefit to a square setup is that you can rotate your tires. That is the ONLY benefit period. There is a reason that NO race teams do this but that is a whole diffeent story all together (proper tuning of the suspension). In short for the weekend racer on a budget this is the cheapest way to run the car. Again it all comes down to how much $ you have to run the car. Lawyers made them do it LOL oh my; that may have been one the funniest and uninformed things I have read in a while.

jkman720
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 04:44:08 PM
"It all depends". That said, I've worn a little section out of the front fender liners such that even 275/35-18 up front no longer brushes against them. A little rub on the fender liner shouldn't bother you, and a 255/40-18 will easily clear the stuff that matters with appropriate wheels (actual fender itself, suspension, etc). Don't run a 255/35-18 just to preserve the fender liner, that size is really small :twocents:

Thanks, I'll go ahead and run oem rears then. I was a little afraid to brush up agains those liners and was wondering why nobody mentioned it before.

Well, another reason to run 255's is because I can't find the Federal 595rsr's in 265's, and the 255's are only .3in smaller. But 1 inch smaller does seem quite big!

Toyo t1r 255/40ZR18 Overall Diameter 25.9 Width 10.2
Federal 595rsr 255/35/18 Overall Diameter 25 Width 10.2
Federal 595rsr 265/35/18 OD 25.3 Width 10.7


What is your wheel size and offset?

OEM 18" rears, so 18x9 with et 26 I believe.

Braymond141
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 06:17:32 PM
Here is a direct answer for you; the ONLY benefit to a square setup is that you can rotate your tires. That is the ONLY benefit period. There is a reason that NO race teams do this but that is a whole diffeent story all together (proper tuning of the suspension). In short for the weekend racer on a budget this is the cheapest way to run the car. Again it all comes down to how much $ you have to run the car. Lawyers made them do it LOL oh my; that may have been one the funniest and uninformed things I have read in a while.

M3 GTR

Wheels: forged aluminium rims from BBS with integral drive pegs, diameter 18 inches, width 11 inches

Tyres: Michelin racing tyres sizes
27/65-18 (front)
27/68-18 (rear)

Aside from a little taller rear, the tire widths are also the same.

white333
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 07:13:56 PM
Which GTR would you be reffering to because http://www.supercars.net/cars/185.html and than there's the BMW FACTORY M3 GT4 Evo that comes with and I quote "Wheels: BBS, 9,5x18" front, 10x18" rear" . Here is a link to the site that will allow you to download the spec sheet http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/ms_en/cars/bmw_m3_gt4 . So now that we have that out of the way LOL. Also notice in the example the DIFFERENT tire sizes and that right there makes them NOT SQUARE!!!1 You will not be rotating them at all. What you will have is two fronts you can swap and two rears you can swap which if set up like that (remember OEM spec) wouldn't be any different from a staggard set up (remember he asked for the TRUTH). Now if you put 4 of the SAME SIZE TIRE that IS a square set up and you will save in tire purchases which goes back to proving my point that the ONLY benefit (and to some a significant one) is the cost (which in all honesty is nominal especialy if you are running scrubs) but I have already proven my point.

joenationwide
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 07:42:16 PM
Here is a direct answer for you; the ONLY benefit to a square setup is that you can rotate your tires. That is the ONLY benefit period. There is a reason that NO race teams do this but that is a whole diffeent story all together (proper tuning of the suspension). In short for the weekend racer on a budget this is the cheapest way to run the car. Again it all comes down to how much $ you have to run the car. Lawyers made them do it LOL oh my; that may have been one the funniest and uninformed things I have read in a while.

I'm sure you may have a lot of knowledge, but your statement is completely misleading. 99% of track people run square setup on their M3s, and I don't think its just to rotate tires.

OEM setup has terminal understeer with staggered setup. Running a square setup has tremendous advantages on track and autox. The car also has 50:50 weight balance, and as such each corner should have the same size contact patch.

Maybe racecars with modified suspension pick up points, different weight biases, and or lots of power aren't optimized with a square setup, but this discussion is more concerned with street/track M3s.

Braymond141
Tue, Aug-09-2011, 10:55:31 PM
Which GTR would you be reffering to because http://www.supercars.net/cars/185.html and than there's the BMW FACTORY M3 GT4 Evo that comes with and I quote "Wheels: BBS, 9,5x18" front, 10x18" rear" . Here is a link to the site that will allow you to download the spec sheet http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/ms_en/cars/bmw_m3_gt4 . So now that we have that out of the way LOL. Also notice in the example the DIFFERENT tire sizes and that right there makes them NOT SQUARE!!!1 You will not be rotating them at all. What you will have is two fronts you can swap and two rears you can swap which if set up like that (remember OEM spec) wouldn't be any different from a staggard set up (remember he asked for the TRUTH). Now if you put 4 of the SAME SIZE TIRE that IS a square set up and you will save in tire purchases which goes back to proving my point that the ONLY benefit (and to some a significant one) is the cost (which in all honesty is nominal especialy if you are running scrubs) but I have already proven my point.

That doesn't change the fact that the contact patch is the same, and most likely the taller rear tire serves a specific purpose (tread wear, gearing, whatever). Obviously I wasn't referring to the GT4 or I would of said that... It was the E46 M3 GTR I was referencing (we're in the E46 section last time I checked??????).

You sure have a lot to say about it only serving one purpose, yet have made absolutely no mention as to why it doesn't serve as a performance boost. So please, enlighten everyone on this point you have yet to prove.

P.S. as far as cost, buying a squared tire setup is more expensive initially and you can only rotate front to back. For me, rotating means re-balancing and the long terms costs add up even more.

white333
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 01:09:26 PM
The minute you start to track the car with anything but the OEM (which was set up from the factory for a staggard wheel base)suspension (and how many pure M3 are left that hit the track) than this whole thing about a square set up goes out of the window. So thanks for restating my points with proof to prove MY point. Oh and the standard M3 GTR has different tire dimensions front to rear (again proving my point so thanks for that) and the contact patch comment shows that you have no clue what you are talking about as that has NOTHING to do with a square setup.
If you guys want to get into a conversation about contact patches (which is the MOST important part of the wheel) and tire compounds in reference to tire performance than lets have at it but again that has NOTHING to do with this conversation!!!! so again in short the ONLY benefit to a SQUARE SET UP is cost because of the ability to rotate front to back (not recomended if tire dimensions are off front to back which again negates any and all benefits of the square set up)but that does not mean that you will have the best set up suspension as this will ABSOLUTELY degrade the handeling (which is why people lower the front LESS than the rear as again they set the car up IMPROPERLY from the get go). Now I am speaking in laymans terms as yes there are exceptions to the rule and this is where tire compound and contact patch size come into play but if you can afford to run the top tir tires than you most likely have a properely set up suspenion in the first place so this is a mute point.

jph28
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 01:27:53 PM
Here is a direct answer for you; the ONLY benefit to a square setup is that you can rotate your tires. That is the ONLY benefit period.

so again in short the ONLY benefit to a SQUARE SET UP is cost because of the ability to rotate front to back (not recomended if tire dimensions are off front to back which again negates any and all benefits of the square set up)but that does not mean that you will have the best set up suspension as this will ABSOLUTELY degrade the handeling (which is why people lower the front LESS than the rear as again they set the car up IMPROPERLY from the get go).

I will respectfully disagree.

Does the M3 with OEM sizes understeer considerably at the limit in most scenarios? Yes
Does providing an equal contact patch front/rear help negate this tendency? Yes

If you want to talk the pinnacle of factory-backed professional racing, well yes they may not use a square tire setup for every circuit (I honestly don't know and don't care to research it), but this thread is about the benefits pertaining to a street and occasional track driven E46 M3. Tire wear (via rotation) and more "neutral" handling are both tangible benefits. IIRC, the '95 E36 M3 even came with 235s all-around prior to going to 225/245 in '96, ostensibly to make the car handle "safer".

Just curious since you're so sure that equal front/rear tire sizes are so improper - what IS the ideal tire setup? :roll:

m3 hal
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 01:55:40 PM
Don't square setups, at least as they are done on the E46 m3, increase front track width by about 1"?

Braymond141
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 06:49:46 PM
I will respectfully disagree.

Does the M3 with OEM sizes understeer considerably at the limit in most scenarios? Yes
Does providing an equal contact patch front/rear help negate this tendency? Yes

If you want to talk the pinnacle of factory-backed professional racing, well yes they may not use a square tire setup for every circuit (I honestly don't know and don't care to research it), but this thread is about the benefits pertaining to a street and occasional track driven E46 M3. Tire wear (via rotation) and more "neutral" handling are both tangible benefits. IIRC, the '95 E36 M3 even came with 235s all-around prior to going to 225/245 in '96, ostensibly to make the car handle "safer".

Just curious since you're so sure that equal front/rear tire sizes are so improper - what IS the ideal tire setup? :roll:

He has no clue. Even if he did, I doubt we'd be able to understand the butchered text.

///MTechnik
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 06:51:30 PM
Just curious since you're so sure that equal front/rear tire sizes are so improper - what IS the ideal tire setup? :roll:

This... And maybe I'm ignorant, but I fail to see how widening the front tires would throw off the suspension geometry. IMO lowering the car would be more problematic as far as that is concerned.

Braymond141
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 07:01:17 PM
This... And maybe I'm ignorant, but I fail to see how widening the front tires would throw off the suspension geometry. IMO lowering the car would be more problematic as far as that is concerned.

He's acting as if everyone on here has some ill conceived stanceworks setup. He isn't taking the time to try and understand that more is going into just widening the front tires (for those that are going for performance).

m3 hal
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 07:32:40 PM
This... And maybe I'm ignorant, but I fail to see how widening the front tires would throw off the suspension geometry.

The location of the center of the contact patch is a variable in calculating the roll center of the front suspension. Just widening the tires a little is probably a mild effect.

FrumpyBF
Wed, Aug-10-2011, 07:33:17 PM
I will add that until I swapped top hats and got more that 2 degrees of front camber, my car tram-lined pretty strongly.

The car does not have problems with kicking the tail out unexpectedly. In fact its better because it comes out in a more predictable way, unlike the staggered setup which required lots of throttle to get the rear to come out. If driven badly, the car can still be made to understeer.

I run 275/30-19s on 19x9.5 +45 all the way around with a 5mm spacer in front and a 25mm spacer on the back. I haven't heard or noticed otherwise any rubbing.

///MTechnik
Thu, Aug-11-2011, 09:22:24 AM
The location of the center of the contact patch is a variable in calculating the roll center of the front suspension. Just widening the tires a little is probably a mild effect.

:thumbsup: thanks for the edumacation!

bimmenatr
Mon, Aug-22-2011, 11:15:47 PM
Ss anyone running running stock 19's with a 255/35 square setup? No spacers etc. I'm torn right now. About to get some new Super Sports and its either 245/275 (which I currently have with my Conti's) or 255 all around since that's the largest size I can get on the front wheels. Impressions compared to stock or the 245/275 would be great. A lot of the guys running square here have aftermarket wheels with equal offsets all around. I'd like to hear how it feels with the stock offsets. Pics would be great too if you have any.

SVBM3
Tue, Aug-23-2011, 12:43:34 AM
i run 275/35/18's all around. Tons of track time on the car and the difference is significant when combined with camber plates and a proper alignment/set up. My car is exponentially more neutral and the increase in grip significant. My 2 cents...