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View Full Version : How does M3 compare to 996 on the track?


Denis54
Sun, Nov-16-2003, 10:05:09 PM
For those of you who track their car, how does the M3 compare to C2 and C4 996 on the track?

Is it faster or slower?

Is it easier or more difficult to drive?

I am asking just out of curiosity as I have no intention to track my car.

<3M3'sE46
Sun, Nov-16-2003, 10:20:04 PM
Now that I have my M3, I am trying to get my dad to the track. He is an amazing driver but I wish I could tell you ( he has a C4 cabriolet).

Sly1
Sun, Nov-16-2003, 10:44:27 PM
In the hands of professionals, the 911 prevails almost always. Stock cars driven by amateurs can go either way.

RonCT
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 01:04:28 AM
My opinion / experience is pretty much that only the Turbo, GT2 and GT3 stock P-cars can beat the stock M3 around the track.

C4 loses power to the awd and is heavy. C2 just doesn't have enough everything to keep up with the M3.

Mash3
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 01:41:40 AM
Really? With only 10 less hp. and a much lower center of gravity and better brakes I'd think a new C2 would walk away. I'm just guessing though... ??

Divexxtreme
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 02:09:26 AM
Regardless of the Porche C2's lower center of gravity and "better" brakes, the M3 has a shorter braking distance from 0-60 and 0-80, a quicker 0-60 and 1/4 mile time, the same lateral g's and a faster slalom speed.
:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Mash3
Really? With only 10 less hp. and a much lower center of gravity and better brakes I'd think a new C2 would walk away. I'm just guessing though... ??

Mash3
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 02:50:55 AM
Cool. Its just that I was behind a new C2 last night and noticed how low it was compared to my M3. If you're right, I assume you are, its amazing how our cars compare to 'pure' sportscars. :beer:

cohibadad
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 04:40:09 AM
The reality of it is that a better driver will almost always win. I am not exaggerating when I say that an excellent driver could drive a turd faster than I could drive a formula 1. I've seen guys drive Dodge Neons faster around a track than most people could drive their M3. That being said. Given the same excellent driver, I'd "guess" that RonCT is probably correct. But it's close. I would also guess that an M3 would be more forgiving in the hands of an amateur than the C2, but less than the C4. Maybe.

Some site lists Nurburgring times and I think the C2 beat the M3. Correct me if I'm wrong.

RonCT
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 11:29:11 AM
Everyone is right here. Driving skill will win the day in either a C2, C4, or M3.

There's a guy in our CCA instructor group with a 1972 Celica with moderate modifications. You should see him eat up the track...

As to Ring times - I've seen a list (I wish I could find the link again) that had the M3 well ahead of the C2 and C4.

The P-car rear ends are definitely more nervous than the M3. So yes, I believe that in any 1 driver's hands somewhat less than professsional racer, they will be able to push the M3 more so than the P-car.

cohibadad
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 01:03:43 PM
I found these times. Where's the M3?

6:59 Ferrari 312T driver Niki Lauda, German GP training 1975
7:06 Ferrari 312T driver Clay Regazzoni, German GP race 1975
*1.2m longer circuit than standard Nordschleife

6:11 Porsche 956 Group C driver Stefan Bellof, training 1983
6:26 Porsche 956 Group C driver Stefan Bellof, race 1983
6:41 Porsche 956 Group C driver Derek Bell
7:50 BMW X5 Le Mans V12 driver Hans Stuck, 2001
*.232 km longer than current, standard Nordschleife

7:33 Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 driver Wolfgang Kaufman, 2001
7:43 TechArt GT Street (911), 2001
7:45 Gemballa Porsche GTR600, 2000
7:46 Porsche 996 GT2
7:46 SHK Porsche 993 GT2 652 hp, 1999
7:49 Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
7:50 Blitz Supra 750 hp driver Herbet Schürg, 1997
7:50 Honda RC30 rider Helmut Daehne, 1993
7:50 Lamborghini Murcielago, Horst von Saurma, 2002
7:52 Gemballa Porsche Porsche 911 Le Mans, 1995
7:55 Caterham R500 Superlight
7:56 Porsche 996 Turbo
7:57 Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo 600 HP, racing suspension
8:03 Porsche 996 GT3
8:04 Lamborghini Diablo GT
8:06 Caterham 7 Superlight R (driver Robert Nearn)
8:07 Ferrari 550 Maranello
8:09 Ferrari 360 Modena
8:09 Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
8:10 Chrysler Viper GTS 411 ps UK-Spec, no ABS
8:10 Donkervoort D8 180R
8:12 Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:12 Porsche 993 Turbo
8:13 Lotus Esprit Sport 350 354 ps
8:15 BMW Z8 400 ps
8:15 Ruf 911 CTR 2 520 hp
8:16 AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II 350 ps
8:17 Porsche 996 C2
8:18 Ferrari F355
8:22 BMW M Coupe 321 ps
8:23 Porsche 996 Carrera 4
8:25 Audi RS4 375 HP
8:25 Callaway C12
8:25 Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI
8:26 Mercedes Benz SLK 32 AMG
8:28 BMW M5 400 ps
8:28 Nissan Skyline GTR 277 hp
8:28 Porsche 993 C2
8:29 Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG
8:31 Ferrari F355 GTS 380 hp
8:32 BMW M Roadster 321 ps
8:32 Porsche Boxster S
8:34 Acura NSX 276 hp
8:34 BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i 231 ps
8:35 BMW M3 Coupe 321 ps
8:36 BMW E36 M3 EVO 321 ps
8:37 Maserati 3200GT
8:37 Mercedes Benz C32 AMG
8:37 Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec 350 hp
8:37 Subaru Impreza GT Turbo
8:38 Honda NSX
8:38 Mercedes Benz SL500, 12/2001
8:38 Porsche 996 Carrera 296 hp
8:39 Honda S2000
8:41 Aston Martin DB7
8:41 Audi S3 210 ps
8:42 Audi S4 265 HP
8:42 Lotus Exige
8:44 Chevrolet Corvette
8:45 Chevrolet Corvette 339 hp, automatic
8:46 Porsche 993 Carrera S 285 hp
8:47 Honda Civic Type-R 200 ps, 2001
8:49 Jaguar XKR Coupe
8:49 Renault Clio Sport V6
8:52 Mercedes CLK 430
9:09 Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion

m3again
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 01:08:32 PM
Originally posted by RonCT
My opinion / experience is pretty much that only the Turbo, GT2 and GT3 stock P-cars can beat the stock M3 around the track.

C4 loses power to the awd and is heavy. C2 just doesn't have enough everything to keep up with the M3.

The C4 is heavy, but not heavier than an M3 of course.

Between a stock C2, C4, and M3 it would definitely come down to the driver.

RonCT
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 01:26:21 PM
Must be lots of lists out there for the Ring. I saw one last week that had the GT3 and the M3 CSL both under 8 minutes, with a slight advantage to the GT3. This list doesn't have the CSL and has over 8 for the GT3.

Wickeddeus
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 01:29:00 PM
1999 Porsche 911 C2
General Information
Price: $64,000
Miles Per Gallon: 17/24 mpg
Curb Weight: 2910 lbs
Layout: Rear-Engine/RWD or AWD
Transmission: 6-Speed Manual
Engine
Type: Flat-6
Displacement: 3600 cc
Horsepower: 300 bhp @ ---- rpm
Torque: 258 lb-ft @ 4600 rpm
Redline: ---- rpm
Performance
0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
0-100 mph: 13.5 sec
Quarter Mile: 13.8 sec @ 103 mph
Skidpad: .94g
Top Speed: 177 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 126 ft
Slalom Speed: 64.6 mph

2000 BMW M3
General Information
Price: $45,000
Miles Per Gallon: 16/24 mpg
Curb Weight: 3460 lbs
Layout: Front-Engine/RWD
Transmission: 6-Speed Manual
Engine
Type: Inline-6
Displacement: 3246 cc
Horsepower: 333 bhp @ 7900 rpm
Torque: 262 lb-ft @ 4900 rpm
Redline: 8000 rpm
Performance
0-60 mph: 4.7 sec
0-100 mph: 11.6 sec
Quarter Mile: 13.2 sec @ 109 mph
Skidpad: .91g
Top Speed: 155 mph (limited)
Braking, 60-0 mph: 112 ft
Slalom Speed: 65.1 mph

About 500 pounds difference in weight and I believe in 2002 Porsche added more power, up to 320 bhp and 273 lb-ft.

Times from http://www.nordschleife.no/
shows....

Porsche: 20,832 km 8,17 = 151 km/h Porsche 996 Carrera 300 ps.

Porsche 996 8.17.550 149.05034km/h 92.61559mph

BMW: 20,832 km 8,22 = 149 km/h BMW e46 M3 -00, BMW test drivers 2000.

M3 E46 8.22.051 147.71407km/h 91.78527mph

Those are the numbers before the added power in 2002.

DMS
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 02:25:29 PM
Originally posted by cohibadad
The reality of it is that a better driver will almost always win. I am not exaggerating when I say that an excellent driver could drive a turd faster than I could drive a formula 1. I've seen guys drive Dodge Neons faster around a track than most people could drive their M3. That being said. Given the same excellent driver, I'd "guess" that RonCT is probably correct. But it's close. I would also guess that an M3 would be more forgiving in the hands of an amateur than the C2, but less than the C4. Maybe.

Some site lists Nurburgring times and I think the C2 beat the M3. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have had my M3 at Mid-Ohio performance driving school a couple of times. The race car instructors can drive Honda Accords so fast that it takes everything I have just to keep up with them. I am sure that they could trounce me in a race even being down over a 100hp and in a much less capable car. Most of us are unable to tap into even a fraction of the M3's potential.

Dave

Dave

mabbadgerbimmer
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 06:28:23 PM
It is mostly the driver when comparing these cars stock to stock. However an M3 with the typical mods to suspension and brakes is a faster car on the track then the 996 C2 or C4, based upon my experience in BMW and Porsche club driving events.

Based upon time in the instructors seat in both E46 M3s and 996s the M3 is much easier to teach someone to drive fast than the 996.

By the way Porsche lists weights with no gas or driver. BMW lists weights with 1/2 tank and 150lb driver. So the Porsche weight advantage is more like 200 - 250 pounds.

Avenger
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 08:12:15 PM
Ok, I drive an M3 and my father drives a C4 and we were up at the track 7 days this summer so I think I can give some insight.

On the track the M3's faults become obvious- the stock brakes ****, the alignment is set way too much towards understeer, and the car is heavy. However, with some slight modifications -- European rotors, new brake pads, an alignment adjustment, and track tires -- the car is very formidable. Now I was no where near as quick around the track as my father, being that he's a professional driver, but I did have the opportunity to drive both cars and so did my father.

My dad's C4 had excellent brakes and the fact that it had a rearward bias seemed to help the car get it's back end glued to the ground when powering through the apex of the corners. I found that that the C4 was an easier car for me to drive fast.

However, my father found that the car understeered too much for his liking and told me that he preferred the 50/50 balance of the M3. He also said that the M3 was a faster car around the track due to it's weight distribution and small power advantage -- note that this was a 1999 c4, so a 2002 c2 would negate that advantage entirely. However, the fact of the matter is that he explicitly told me that with equal power the M3 would still walk a way from a C4 in the hands of a good driver -- a c2 would be a lot closer due to its lower weight and the fact that it wouldn't understeer as badly. Given that he is a professional who used to race Porsche's FOR Porsche, has been the head driving instructor for our Porsche club, and has won a plethora of club and Firehawk Series races (now the Grand Am series), I definitely would respect his opinion.

In the end, when you go to the track it's all up to the driver. When I was with the Porsche club I walked away from a 2002 c2 all day, but my dad beat me around the track by about 5 seconds a lap in his 1999 c4... Also of note although not entirely related, the M3 destroyed an Sti by about 5-10 seconds a lap =).

Wickeddeus
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 09:00:15 PM
Originally posted by mabbadgerbimmer
By the way Porsche lists weights with no gas or driver. BMW lists weights with 1/2 tank and 150lb driver. So the Porsche weight advantage is more like 200 - 250 pounds.

From what I understand all European car makers list weight with 1/2 tank of gas and 2 persons in the car.

m3again
Mon, Nov-17-2003, 09:12:47 PM
Originally posted by Wickeddeus


From what I understand all European car makers list weight with 1/2 tank of gas and 2 persons in the car.

Yes, you are right, AFAIK. This is an EU standard.